LJBF'd? Get out of the Friend Zone 101

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    LJBF'd? Get out of the Friend Zone 101

    A lot of people have posted about getting out of the LJBF zone. I did this recently and this How-To is basically how I did it.

    Eliminate Contact For A Few Weeks

    Remove yourself from her for a while. Sometimes 2-3 weeks is enough, sometimes a month or two. And I mean COMPLETELY. You should not see or talk to her. Your goal is to reset your associations with her and come back to her as if your "catching up" with each other and haven't seen each other for a while. When you come back to her it is important that you reverse the frame on her within the first few times you see her. Don't set a sexual frame at all, it will be unknown to her and she probably won't expect one of her "friends" to act like that. It will "shock/surprise" her. And you don't want that in this case. With a random sexual frame, she will react as being uncomfortable and it will be awkward.

    Reverse The Frame

    When I say reverse the frame, I mean to reverse it by carefully making it seem like she is the one who is wants you. This is one of the few situations where I would definitely disqualify her at an opportune time.

    For example, since you are friends, it's likely she will say something positive about you at some point. Especially if you haven't seen her for a while. Such as "I missed you!" Just say things like "oh geez, don't be clingy, you know I'm too good for you anyways..". But say it in a VERY jokingly way. Give her a gay little shuv even just for good measure. Make sure your smiling and she knows your just teasing. This should be done less cocky and more funny.

    Out Of The Friendzone, Into The "Flirty Zone"

    When you say these kinds of things every now and then, it will adjust your friendship into a flirty sort of one. This is how you eventually will get your opportunity to move from flirty to sexual. But once your LJBF'd, you cannot achieve the perception of a potential suitor until you cross into the "flirty zone". Once you achieve a flirtacious friendship, then you can advance it to flirting + light kino. See below for kino tactics. Flirting with her should start from the minute that you see her after your little two or three week "break".

    At first, it will be you flirting with her, keep it sarchastic and funny. Eventually, you should start to see her initiate flirtyness more often when you see her. The more often she gets flirty with you, the more closer you are to being able to move to the next step of getting out of LJBF.

    Proper Kino Escalation In A LJBF Situation

    Initial Kino should be punches in the arm, butt bumps, and lame gay shit like that cuz it is non-threatening. Speaking of your kino task. You should escalate in this order:

    1) nudging/arm punching/butt bumps when joking with each other

    2) Sitting closer together (if your on a couch, see if she lets you lay your head in her lap as if you were tired and falling asleep, lay your head on her lap with your back to her -- its less threatening)

    3) Put your arm around her neck while your walking&talking. Do this only for like 10-15 seconds or so, MAX, then release her. Keep doing this every so often until she responds by wrapping her arms around your waist. Until she wraps around your waist, do not move foward to the next kino step.

    4) When your walking with your arms around each other each other (above), let go and grab her hand. Then walk while holding hands for a minute or two and then let go.

    Act like this is all happenning naturally. It is important that you release her before she has the option to push you away.

    5) If you got away with holding hands, you can get away with kissing her. Don't kiss her the first time you hold hands.

    6) To kiss her: Wait until the 2nd time you hold hands (while walking&talking) and when you stop walking, so will she. Turn your shoulders towards her to face her slowly and closely. Lean in and kiss her. Don't lean in too much tho.

    These 6 kino steps should be a slow process that may take place over a few different days with her. Seperate each kino step by atleast 1-2 hours. Calibration is very important. If you go to much too fast? You blew it.

    You should never discuss "Dating" with her or say anything that implies that you want to date her. If you ask her out, tell her you want to "spend the day with her". And take her out and just chill with her, tease her, kino escalate, release. Your going to be doing A LOT of Bait Hook Reel Release.

    A great place to take her to accomplish a "day together" is the beach. Take her somewhere that you will do a lot of walking. Preferably the state fair, the beach, avoid the mall. Take her wine tasting, etc.. You'll need to do a lot of bumping/teasting/nudging/teasing etc... and you can't do that sitting down in a gay ass movie theater. DO NOT TAKE HER TO THE MOVIES.

    100% of the time you should maintain the idea that you didn't expect this to happen bla bla bla. But don't say it unless she says something first. You need to down play this whole experience. It will be very awkward to her if you push to fast, get to aggressive, talk about needy shit, have needy body language, etc...

    and thats "Get out of the LJBF Zone 101"... folks

    Best of Luck, Always.
    Last edited by TrueStory; 06-30-2009 at 06:08 AM. Reason: It's not "LBFJ'd" it's "LJBF'd"



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    I like the way you did that, I've always had some trouble getting out of the LJBF zone, so I'll try this stuff out.

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    Hmm, interesting stuff BJ, let's see how and if I'd like to dip my toe into her water.....oops freudian slip

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    More Explination/Clarification On Some Related Stuff

    My above post was very step 1, step 2 oriented. During each step all the normal TMM theories still apply. Especially regarding attraction switches. Here are my thoughts and futher comments to describe more in-depth the stuff that I do in general around girls.

    Body Language Tips

    Body language during the above program is so important. This flirty stuff is new to her and going to cause her to "watch" you more to decide whether to buy it or not. You have to be ultra confident. Before you do or say anything, Ask yourself.. is this going to look try-hard or show too much interest?

    Remember that your eyes are your line of focus. If you say something to someone when you are looking at them, it is percieved different then if you say it while looking off into the back ground. Same thing with shoulder position. When you are facing someone, whatever you say will be more direct then if your standing shoulder to shoulder and side by side. When you say certain things to a girl, such as teasing, you almost want to make it seem like she isn't even there and your just talking to yourself. As if your ignoring her because her reaction doesn't matter.

    Body Language/Delivery Tips While Teasing Her

    Example: If you are walking side by side, you are on the left, she is on your right walking in a straight line and talkin away about random normal crap...

    ...Ideally, you will be looking in the 10oclock position (slightly away from her) while walking side by side when you deliver a joke. A lot of time when I say funny shit to a girl, its when I'm looking away like this and I'll say something rude/sarchastic and she slaps me on the arm to grab my attention back and say "hey!!! jerk!". I almost say it under my breathe and it comes off very obvious that I am joking. Of course as soon as she slaps me I'll smile and chuckle a little bit.

    Personality/Inner Game (Related to LJBF Girls That Already Have a Pre-Determined Impression of You)

    Be your normal self. If your a nice guy, stay nice. If your a loud obnoxious guy, stay loud and obnoxious. Your not changing your personality for her. She already likes your personality or you wouldn't be her friend. What you are adjusting is the social dynamics between you and the girl by adjusting frame and flipping attraction switches. Remember the following!!! No sexual frame!! atleast until you kiss her. You just want to be like "haha ur a dork.. stop talkin to me.." type flirting.

    More Flirting Tips

    Don't say shit like "ohh yer ass looks fat in those jeans i like the other ones better.. the other ones are much more sexy.. go change dork.."
    --- My point: Its not that you don't want to call her fat. I call girls fat and bitches and all kinds of shit all the time and they love it (or love me and hate that i'm sayin it lol). Granted, for now, don't insult her either. But what matters is that your getting sexual, making comments about her that include sexual body parts. This is a huge no-no. Its too direct and try-hard.

    Most of my teases and things were very quickly done. Get in, get out. I say something to tease her, then I release and go back to normal conversation. Very quick verbal jabs, moments of laughter, a bantering tease, back to normal conversation. Its a constant cycle of teasing attitude and then taking that teasing attitude away. You want to be very careful that you don't get insulting with her. Don't directly compliment her either. Directly complimenting her should realistically not happen at all during this entire program. Remember, her value is probably higher then yours in her eyes, you don't want to compliment her and raise her value even more. If you can help it, don't start teasing her about things ABOUT HER. Tease her about stuff she says (ex: whining), actions that she makes(ex: tripping/falling), make her feel dorky. If you insult her and she takes it wrong, you blew it.

    Space out your teasing/banter. Your conversation and interaction still has to include MOSTLY regular conversation and comfort type stuff.

    Conclusion

    If there is anything else that I did that I can think of that is relevant to making the LJBF reversal happen then I will post more...

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    Comprehensive post.

    From my experience with an LJBF girl that turned into dating material for a while: It REALLY helped when the LJBF girl saw me flirting with and gaining attraction from a couple of other girls...
    It helps when there's that jealousy plotline or when she sees that you have social proof, or for that matter, when she sees ANY reason that you're attractive that she didn't see before.

    Philander

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    What about bringing up some women u dated in the interrim...or Asking if shes still single, than saying "that guy is PERFECT for you!" when some pencil neck is in view...Or teasing like "no dates huh? oh well..." Just a thought, I havent actually bumped into any old 'friends' lately.

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    This is brilliant! I think the kino progression will be especially helpful to refer to. One thing I'm wondering about though is, what if she's not receptive to your tactics? Write her off as lost case and move on to the next?

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    How to change from friendship to girlfriend? help

    I met a girl and we both instantly were attracted to each other.

    Went on two dates the same week. After 2nd date she told me she considered me as a friend only.

    Going to try those techniques.

    wish me luck.
    Last edited by 007james; 12-02-2007 at 02:47 PM.

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    This should be useful If you want to go back out with your ex and you are still friends with her.

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    great writeup, i am so going to use this when i go back for winter break

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    youre fucking awesome bro...i dont wanna sound like this.but ive done some of the steps (though not in order) without even knowing what i was doing.especially walaking with hands over shoulder n releasing it.
    and stopping to kisss...but mad props to you man. RESPECT....but this right here is complete package

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    I am going to bump this, because, people need to read it.

    This is a GOOD write up but might give some guys false hope.

    If i am understanding right:

    this is how to get out of LJBF zone with a girl you HAD attraction with but blew it, because of lack of game.

    This is NOT for one-itis or girls that put you in "No-fucking-way-we-would-ever-have-sex" zone.

    Correct?

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    LOL in a weird way I feel like he is growing up right before my eyes. Almost makes me want to shed a tear.

    nyc represent son hollllllllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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    I agree that this is right on point. This explains everything. Good lookin out TrueStory, awesome thread Cane. Maybe this will cut down the number of LJBF threads.

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    Very comprehensive post, i think it should be pointed out that the amount of time youre cutting yourself off from the girl can vary, if you dont wait long enough youll have to start the waiting all over again, and it will take longer the 2nd time.

    Also it would be good to find a way to involve a pivot in this scenario, somewhere near the middle or end before you kiss her, sometime during the kino escalation, have a pivot show up and put "what an awesome guy this is" in her head even more.

    Finally, the theory part behind this is really that you have to 'change the frame' like hed said, you dont change your personality, but you have to show her how well youre doing and all of this would be to imply that she may have missed the boat with you, an awesome guy, who other girls just cant seem to get enough of...iiinteresting....

    happy sarging, and good post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueStory View Post
    I am going to bump this, because, people need to read it.

    This is a GOOD write up but might give some guys false hope.

    If i am understanding right:

    this is how to get out of LJBF zone with a girl you HAD attraction with but blew it, because of lack of game.

    This is NOT for one-itis or girls that put you in "No-fucking-way-we-would-ever-have-sex" zone.

    Correct?
    Managing one-itis is up to the individual, I guess. It could be used to "get that one girl", of course we always recommend finding other girls while your at it.

    When I wrote this, I meant it to be used in a situation where you had rapport with the girl for a short period and ended up being LBFJ'd. Mostly likely, due to lack of kino and poor skills in escalating towards a sexual tension.

    Maybe you met a girl through a friend, became friends with her, maybe were attracted to her, but never made a move. At some point, she probably accepted you as just a friend, or maybe it was just like that from the get go. The point is, whether attraction was there or not, that mutual sexual dynamic was never created. Having a mutual attraction towards each other doesn't really create a sexual dynamic unless someone acts upon it and it is reciprocated.

    I personally think if you were in the process of gaming a girl, and there was obvious sexual actions such as hand holding, kissing, maybe sex, and then things fell off and you got LBFJ'd, I would probably take a slightly different approach because that sexual dynamic that existed before will always be present in the back of your minds. So going from a friendship zone dynamic to a sexual one really isn't necessary. In that case, I would focus more on showing her that I'm not chasing her and that I have other options. I think when re-visiting a pre-exisiting sexual dynamic, its better to create a jealousy plotline and not chase. If you show high enough value, she probably will chase you eventually. I'd just wait it out and be relaxed about shit while her brain does the work for me. Meanwhile sarging other girls...

    Any thoughts on that?

    Cane

    disclaimer: This process is just a form of damage control. don't use this as an excuse to perpetuate your one-itis. whether we condone it or not, there are hundreds of posts on here that beg for help on that one that got away. as long as your gaming other chicks and not putting too much of your emotion into whether this works out for you or not, then you don't have one-itis IMO.

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    thanks a lot for this. it really lays everything out step by step for a lot of us new guys. we appreciate it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Cane_ View Post
    I personally think if you were in the process of gaming a girl, and there was obvious sexual actions such as hand holding, kissing, maybe sex, and then things fell off and you got LBFJ'd, I would probably take a slightly different approach because that sexual dynamic that existed before will always be present in the back of your minds. So going from a friendship zone dynamic to a sexual one really isn't necessary. In that case, I would focus more on showing her that I'm not chasing her and that I have other options. I think when re-visiting a pre-exisiting sexual dynamic, its better to create a jealousy plotline and not chase. If you show high enough value, she probably will chase you eventually. I'd just wait it out and be relaxed about shit while her brain does the work for me. Meanwhile sarging other girls...

    Any thoughts on that?
    Sorry for bumping an old post, but this part is something that kind of jumped out at me. I wonder what other people's thoughts are on this topic. Personally, I have never gamed a girl that I gamed before, had sexual relations, and then got LBFJ'd(due to distance, time, whatever reason). It would be nice to know if that door is still open .
    Last edited by skystream92; 04-16-2008 at 12:46 AM. Reason: apparently i have no idea how to quote

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    Quote Originally Posted by skystream92 View Post
    Sorry for bumping an old post, but this part is something that kind of jumped out at me. I wonder what other people's thoughts are on this topic. Personally, I have never gamed a girl that I gamed before, had sexual relations, and then got LBFJ'd(due to distance, time, whatever reason). It would be nice to know if that door is still open .
    Unless something has changed in her life or you have majorly dlved you are still categorized as sex worthy. Women put guys into boxes.

    Five common ones are:
    01) Creepy (you're done)
    02) Neutral (unsure how she feels yet)
    03) Friendzone (ljbf)
    04) Provider Frame (potential LTR and withholding of sex)
    05) Sexworthy.

    Unless something has substantially changed you are probably still in box 5
    View Full Profile: Click Here 200 + Reviews (Most In Company History): http://www.theattractionforums.com/t...iew_fader.html (watch my journey from student to approach coach, to instructor, to master instructor, to stripper destroyer).

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    what would you recommend for a long distance situation??

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    Quote Originally Posted by diesel03 View Post
    what would you recommend for a long distance situation??
    End it. Seriously. No offense, but I've never heard good things about LDRs and the few I've experienced first hand didn't end well.
    The key to immortality is first to live a life worth remembering --Bruce Lee

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    How I salvaged my LJBF situation

    I recently went through this, mine was a bit different though, I went from Day 2 f-close, to LJBF zone after our second date, it took me 2 days to get out of it, lol. But I think I got lucky that she was into me but without knowing TMM i would still be in LJBFzone doing god knows what to "get her back".
    So ill post this, the topic is from a discussion I posted after I got LJBFed, after that is the rundown of what took place:

    Original post:


    I learned my lesson today, if you dont kino your going str8 into LJBF. It had happened to me before(not after an f-close though) but didnt know why I would end up there, well yesterday night, not only did I know it was happening:

    I warned myself about it, read the situation as it happened (didnt do anything about it) and by the end of the night laughed my way home because I knew I had ended up in friends zone(I just knew it).

    Today in the morning I get the 2am message that I received while sleeping yesterday saying "somehow I feel we ended in fiend zone" hahahaha, it is awesome that now I can read the situation much better and know why I ended up there.

    Ill write the situation so people that read this know what NOT to do.:
    I f-closed this girl last week and today was hoping to continue that but:

    1. I didnt kino at all during our 2 hour meeting, I have a special case of kino avoidance, always had it, dont know why but I am working(slowly as we can see) to get over this barrier.

    2. Told myself to set a sexual frame early, never did.

    3. The girl threw out signs that she wanted to go home with me that night. This was my biggest fuck up, because I was really dead tired and had to sleep so I never went for the pull.(This was my assumption, and from post talk she said she didnt plan to go home with me that night, but the truth is I remember her asking me this quite a bit before throwing it out there that she coudlnt go home with me)


    I think I was able to keep attraction during our interaction, I really dont think I fucked up with what(though now Iam trying to remember what we talked about,lol). In the end of the night I just feel she had no idea where she was standing( she was up 3 hours after our meeting writingand sms, so...), which means, LJBF'zone.

    Yesterday night I was already thinking how I was going to try and get myself out of this one but she beat me to the punch with the long winded 2am sms, hahaha.

    I dont think this is a one-itis cae because I dont want an LTR, and I knew I was going to fuck this one up so after last week I said to myslef, at least I can keep her around as a pivot and friend.

    However I will try getting myself out of this, more as a challenge than anything else. Unfortunately I already set up another date with this chick for next week and I wont cancel or it will seem like I was affected by this. But after this I will follow the advice on this forum to see if I can change the situation.

    Im still thinking how to respond to the sms, I was going to go with the "wow, I felt the exact same thing... bla bla bla" but not sure if that is right.

    Anyway word to the wise, dont do what I did yesterday or you will end up in LJBFzone.

    Here is what went down after that:

    After the girl LJBF'ed me(with a message at 2am) I called her the next day when I got the message and I played it cool (said im fine with just being freinds) and asked if our restaurant date(now "friend" meeting) was still set for that sunday, she said yes.(this date was prearranged so I would of looked like a pussy if a cancelled)

    The next day she called wanting to meet in the city. After persuasion from a friend I decided to meet her(I had a real time constraint). My strategy was to run A2 hard, basically take control of the conversation which I had lost on my 2nd date with her, I did just that with some:

    1. Funny stories, not really DHV(although im sure those must of been in there) stories but I wanted to take control of the conversation and make her have a good time
    2. Acted as if I didnt give a shit that she had LJBF me, I was also confident, not pouting or with a pussy face on CONFIDENT(consciouly)
    3. I cut her off quite a bit and talked about myself, or my situation, again I talked more, took control of convo.
    4. Teased as much as I could, she didnt drop one tease I had going for like 5 minutes,lol. Qualified herself after that...



    When I met her she had remembered me saying I was lookig for colognes so she had samples with her to show me, I took this as an IOI. Also saw some major hair twirling during the last 10 mins of our interaction. After the 25 min, meeting I knew she was still attracted.

    The next day(friday) she text me, asking me what I was doing, I said I was waiting to decide what place to go to. She invites me to her place while I decide where to go, I agreed to go, with a game plan of at least kissing and getting as much kino as I could.

    When I got there we where both on time constraint and two things prevented me from going for the kiss(which I knew I could of gotten)
    1. my lack of balls
    2. we both had upcoming interrupts and the sexual tension that was building there could of been ruined by a kiss and then an interrupt which could of given her time to think about things more. I only got very light kino in...

    So during our convo she was throwing signs that she wanted to spend more time with me so we both agreed to watch a movie at my place after our early night ended. I told her "call me when your done" she agreed.

    Met up at my place at 2am and after 20 minutes of ball searching on my part I kissed her(mystery k-close) and it went from there. She said no sex that night which I didnt force I just played it cool and put my hands to use, lol...
    sex eventually took place.

    That was it, Im still seeing this girl and since then I have asked her about the LJBF thing and she herself says she doesnt know why she did it, but I know EXACTLY why it happened. Just goes to show how it is the man who has to DEFINE the relationship. Like I said before after our 2nd date she felt she had no idea where she was standing because I completely lost my sexual frame, this is where my fuck up was...
    Last edited by LGFUAD; 04-16-2008 at 01:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by diesel03 View Post
    what would you recommend for a long distance situation??
    Long distance relationships don't work due to lack of physical contact/kino, which causes the girl to lose attraction, which will shove you into the LJBF zone.

    Happened to me.

    Ironically she asked me the other day: would you still have sex with me? If we did have sex, what would you say after? Would you pretend it just didn't happen?

    Not sure what to make of that.

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    What u wrote Cane is very true in my opinion and is greatly written. Theres jst one thing I dont quite understand... (U make it look quite simple actually):
    If u flirt with her and then ask her to go out she'll understand that ur up to something (especially if she has girlfriends telling her oh look he likes u or things like that) And she'll have to make a premature decision about a romantic relationship with u, which would be a sure NO (when u tell her to go out)

    So to conclude how do u make her go out with u without implying romantic realtionship, I mean even if u go with her to the stupidest place ever, ull have to ask her, and if ull go alone chances are shes understand and will turn u down? THAT right?

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    great post LFGUAD! Just goes to show you how much control we really do have. I myself sometimes fall into the trap of (I know I could so I don't have to prove it) and end up fucking things up for myself. Good to remind yourself not to get caught in that thought process. It only fucks you over in the long run.

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    sweet post _cave_ ... must appreciated

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    Dude, I like this, I think this can really work...Thanks for the tips

    Peace

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    You say that if there has been sexual tension before the LJBF timing, it makes things different. How do you go about taking the 2-3 weeks off from any communication if she's still contacting you? If you ignore her communications, couldn't that ruin any chance of things progressing? Or would you just end the conversation very soon after she starts it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp2Mack View Post
    You say that if there has been sexual tension before the LJBF timing, it makes things different. How do you go about taking the 2-3 weeks off from any communication if she's still contacting you? If you ignore her communications, couldn't that ruin any chance of things progressing? Or would you just end the conversation very soon after she starts it?
    "Hey, it's good to hear from you. I'm kind of busy at the moment, I'll have to get back to you."

    Don't call her back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skystream92 View Post
    "Hey, it's good to hear from you. I'm kind of busy at the moment, I'll have to get back to you."

    Don't call her back.
    Now, by doing this, is there a good chance that she may think I'm mad at her for any issue and in turn not want to talk to me after the 2-3 weeks that I didn't return her calls?

    Also, would the same type of reply be used in answering texts? Or should texts just go ignored?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp2Mack View Post
    Now, by doing this, is there a good chance that she may think I'm mad at her for any issue and in turn not want to talk to me after the 2-3 weeks that I didn't return her calls?

    Also, would the same type of reply be used in answering texts? Or should texts just go ignored?
    This is an inner game thing. If she asks if something is wrong, say everything is fine. If you act like it is, she will interpret it as it is.

    Answering texts is ok. Texts can be answered when you are busy..whereas phone calls eat up alot of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Cane_ View Post
    Proper Kino Escalation In A LJBF Situation

    Initial Kino should be punches in the arm, butt bumps, and lame gay shit like that cuz it is non-threatening. Speaking of your kino task. You should escalate in this order:

    1) nudging/arm punching/butt bumps when joking with each other

    2) Sitting closer together (if your on a couch, see if she lets you lay your head in her lap as if you were tired and falling asleep, lay your head on her lap with your back to her -- its less threatening)

    3) Put your arm around her neck while your walking&talking. Do this only for like 10-15 seconds or so, MAX, then release her. Keep doing this every so often until she responds by wrapping her arms around your waist. Until she wraps around your waist, do not move foward to the next kino step.

    4) When your walking with your arms around each other each other (above), let go and grab her hand. Then walk while holding hands for a minute or two and then let go.

    Act like this is all happenning naturally. It is important that you release her before she has the option to push you away.

    5) If you got away with holding hands, you can get away with kissing her. Don't kiss her the first time you hold hands.

    6) To kiss her: Wait until the 2nd time you hold hands (while walking&talking) and when you stop walking, so will she. Turn your shoulders towards her to face her slowly and closely. Lean in and kiss her. Don't lean in too much tho.

    These 6 kino steps should be a slow process that may take place over a few different days with her. Seperate each kino step by atleast 1-2 hours. Calibration is very important. If you go to much too fast? You blew it.
    Now, in terms of spacing out each step of this process out by 1-2 hours...say you're not with the girl for more than 2 or 3 hours one time but you get to step #2 and she let's you put your head on her lap. Is it safe to proceed to step #3 right away during the next time you see her, or should the entire process start over every time until you actually kiss her? I'm just thinking of how long you would have to actually spend with her each time in order to get every spet accomplished with ample time between steps, so you're not moving too fast and screw everything up.

    Thanks in advance for the help!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp2Mack View Post
    Now, in terms of spacing out each step of this process out by 1-2 hours...say you're not with the girl for more than 2 or 3 hours one time but you get to step #2 and she let's you put your head on her lap. Is it safe to proceed to step #3 right away during the next time you see her, or should the entire process start over every time until you actually kiss her? I'm just thinking of how long you would have to actually spend with her each time in order to get every spet accomplished with ample time between steps, so you're not moving too fast and screw everything up.

    Thanks in advance for the help!
    Calibrate. It depends on the situation really. If she has had a crush on you forever, but you just never advanced, then likely you can get away with more and faster. If your game has gotten really really good since you last tried to establish something with her, then likely you can get away with going faster too. Looking back, I don't think I should have put that into the original post. Because once you are holding hands with her or kissing, or something that is an obvious advance on a non-friendship type relationship, then normal kino escalation is best from there until you full close.


    The longer you've known her without having any obvious signs of attraction or chemistry, the slower the process should be. Either way, once you get a hand hold, assume its on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Cane_ View Post
    Calibrate. It depends on the situation really. If she has had a crush on you forever, but you just never advanced, then likely you can get away with more and faster. If your game has gotten really really good since you last tried to establish something with her, then likely you can get away with going faster too. Looking back, I don't think I should have put that into the original post. Because once you are holding hands with her or kissing, or something that is an obvious advance on a non-friendship type relationship, then normal kino escalation is best from there until you full close.


    The longer you've known her without having any obvious signs of attraction or chemistry, the slower the process should be. Either way, once you get a hand hold, assume its on.
    Lol, I guess it would probably have been best to describe my situation first...

    I've known her for about a month and a half now, we've hung out 5 or 6 times. She was dating a guy for 7 years previous to me and engaged to him up until about 5 months ago then the guy broke off the engagement. It gets to the point with her now that every time we start kissing, she always says that we have to talk and then proceeds to tell me that she has some stuff to deal with and we should remain just friends. She obviously likes me, but I just need to figure out a way to get her thinking differently when we're together where she can just let things go and not have any LMR.

    Any thoughts?

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    When the 2-3 week "break" is over, should I reinitiate talks and just say that we should catch up? Or should I wait until she initiates again and then make plans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp2Mack View Post
    When the 2-3 week "break" is over, should I reinitiate talks and just say that we should catch up? Or should I wait until she initiates again and then make plans?
    if she's not trying to reinitiate contact after you blew her off for a while, you're probably shit out of luck cause she isnt that interested in you even as a friend, but you could always call/text her back saying you're finally returning her call. in my experience, she'll probably be the one to point out that you havent seen each other in a while, then you try to catch up.





    fantastic thread guys!

    i'm going to try this with a girl that blew me back in february and then LJBF'ed me cause i acted a little to AFC and was answering her calls like ever other day. i havent seen her in over a month, and i only respond to texts, so i think i'm good to reset the tone of the relationship when i see her again tomorrow night. wish me luck

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    Ok, first time posting here, though I've lurked and read up for a few months now. ANYWAYS...trying this process out, I want to test it's effectiveness for myself. So it's been nearly a month since I've talked to this certain girl and thus far she's left a myspace comment about wanting to hang out and sent a text message earlier today saying "Miss you!" I haven't responded to this text message yet, as I'm not sure what to respond with according to this thread (and I don't even know how much worth my response has in this situation, so I may be over-complicating/thinking it). So..any tips would be greatly appreciated!

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    hey, i tried some of this stuff on the chick i mentioned above. worked out well (meaning we made out in and against my car), but not perfectly, she wasnt quite hooked. this probably has more to do with my shortcomings in skills and calibration rather than a failure of the technique.
    it was pretty apparent that she was trying to break state as we were driving back, cause she kept asking me questions about why i had kinda been ignoring her for a while and then saying she was hurt by something i said, blah blah blah. i got defensive, which was a big no-no, and responded poorly to some of the shit testing she was using. if others run into this kind of shit testing, i recommend answering as you would politely respond to a girl who you genuinely arent interested in (i.e. "i've just been really busy with work and school and shit..." or "sorry, i just got wrapped up in all this stuff, and you know how time can fly..."), and then change the subject to the cool stuff you've been so busy with. what ever you do, dont bite when she gives you the bait of "i was starting to think you hate/didnt like me any more..." i was able to recover from this mistake, but i could tell she wasnt as into it as i would like...

    and one last thing, dont wait forever to go in for the kiss. by the time i finally did it it was wicked late and she had an hour drive to get home .

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Cane_ View Post
    Proper Kino Escalation In A LJBF Situation

    Initial Kino should be punches in the arm, butt bumps, and lame gay shit like that cuz it is non-threatening. Speaking of your kino task. You should escalate in this order:

    1) nudging/arm punching/butt bumps when joking with each other

    2) Sitting closer together (if your on a couch, see if she lets you lay your head in her lap as if you were tired and falling asleep, lay your head on her lap with your back to her -- its less threatening)

    3) Put your arm around her neck while your walking&talking. Do this only for like 10-15 seconds or so, MAX, then release her. Keep doing this every so often until she responds by wrapping her arms around your waist. Until she wraps around your waist, do not move foward to the next kino step.

    4) When your walking with your arms around each other each other (above), let go and grab her hand. Then walk while holding hands for a minute or two and then let go.

    Act like this is all happenning naturally. It is important that you release her before she has the option to push you away.

    5) If you got away with holding hands, you can get away with kissing her. Don't kiss her the first time you hold hands.

    6) To kiss her: Wait until the 2nd time you hold hands (while walking&talking) and when you stop walking, so will she. Turn your shoulders towards her to face her slowly and closely. Lean in and kiss her. Don't lean in too much tho.

    I don't think it HAS to be in this exact order everytime. There's a girl I've been acquaintances with for the last 1.5yrs. She's cut my hair for almost a year now and we get along good. We finally started hanging out once in a while after she resisted hanging out with me at first. The last two times we went out we ended up holding hands for about a few minutes walking back to my car, and it was totally natural....to the point where neither one of us was really the initiator.....though we were both pretty tipsy. That's the only kino we've had so far, but our interactions have changed recently over the last few months....started off a year or so ago with hellos and goodbyes, then to hugs say about 4 months ago or so, and the last time I hung out with her it was a kiss on the cheek. She's now indirectly inviting me to "stop by and hang out with her and her girlfriends if you're in the area."

    Anywho, just trying to say it doesn't hurt to play it by ear, because everyone is different.

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    This is my first post too!

    Hey guys, I just found this forum today after finishing the Mystery Method book.

    This thread stuck out because I'm going through this RIGHT NOW. I just went out with a "friend" last week after not seeing (or even speaking) for almost 6 months! Broke the ice by simply inviting her to a party i was having. We didn't stop talking for a bad reason either, it just sort of happened that way. We picked up again, but this time, i was different.

    So this starts as a girl i never did anything more with than put my arm around for picture purposes (which by the way guys is a fucking really easy way to start kino, if you continue it after the pic. It gets her used to touching you. Too bad I JUST figured that out.)

    We just went to a near by bar, had a few drinks, and by the end of night I had held hands, arms around the shoulder on the way home, held her in front of me both facing me and looking away (ass to me), and I managed to get a kiss on the cheak without even looking for one.

    Just stayed in my frame (even when she tried to knock me out of it, as we had a teasing relationship before) and followed what i had read in the MM book.

    I have already used the teachings twice (i just finished the book, keep in mind) and both times, got results and saw things i never noticed before. Why they don't hand these books or tips out to boys in Junior High is beyond me. It would have saved me years of bullshit.

    Anyways, I'll see her again when she comes back from out of town (4th of july vacation) and I'll continue doing what I'm doing and incorporate the tips from the original post. I'll let you guys know how it works.

    And again, greetings and salutations to all. I'm glad i found this thread and this forum.

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    every man with a LJBF girl should listen to this advice it's golden. i have a girl that i could try this anytime, I did CF with her when we first meet and every now and then she'll call but I did screw up no kino-escalate, wasn't familiar at the time and I missed some BIG IOIs and was too afraid to pull. I'm sure she was interested in me but now she thinks i'm just a super nice guy, which I am. But I'm ready to practice again soon. She's not even my ideal type but she's fun and attractive, makes great for social circle.

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    sarging

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Mayhoffer View Post
    Hey guys, I just found this forum today after finishing the Mystery Method book.

    This thread stuck out because I'm going through this RIGHT NOW. I just went out with a "friend" last week after not seeing (or even speaking) for almost 6 months! Broke the ice by simply inviting her to a party i was having. We didn't stop talking for a bad reason either, it just sort of happened that way. We picked up again, but this time, i was different.

    So this starts as a girl i never did anything more with than put my arm around for picture purposes (which by the way guys is a fucking really easy way to start kino, if you continue it after the pic. It gets her used to touching you. Too bad I JUST figured that out.)

    We just went to a near by bar, had a few drinks, and by the end of night I had held hands, arms around the shoulder on the way home, held her in front of me both facing me and looking away (ass to me), and I managed to get a kiss on the cheak without even looking for one.

    Just stayed in my frame (even when she tried to knock me out of it, as we had a teasing relationship before) and followed what i had read in the MM book.

    I have already used the teachings twice (i just finished the book, keep in mind) and both times, got results and saw things i never noticed before. Why they don't hand these books or tips out to boys in Junior High is beyond me. It would have saved me years of bullshit.

    Anyways, I'll see her again when she comes back from out of town (4th of july vacation) and I'll continue doing what I'm doing and incorporate the tips from the original post. I'll let you guys know how it works.

    And again, greetings and salutations to all. I'm glad i found this thread and this forum.
    awesome man, i love reading guys that already got decent inner game and helping seeing half matrix, but are you gonna sarge or just try all your past dates? lol
    u always want the friends pursuing you and you just go crash and burn with the strangers. your friends notice the social value shoot through the roof with new girls in your life.

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    As a new guy to this...I was wondering if, when you are ready to break back into communication after 2 weeks or so (depending on some factors), if something like this would be too insulting or just right:

    "hey, I met your twin today, but there was one big difference, she actually responds to txts/email "

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    Quote Originally Posted by spkeehan View Post
    As a new guy to this...I was wondering if, when you are ready to break back into communication after 2 weeks or so (depending on some factors), if something like this would be too insulting or just right:

    "hey, I met your twin today, but there was one big difference, she actually responds to txts/email "
    get rid of this "but there was one big difference, she actually responds to txts/email " Its too reactive. If you were really a cool guy with lots going on his his life, would you care if one girl didn't respond to a text?
    Are you reading Fader's Articles? You should be!

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    Hi everyone, great site/thread. Just wish i'd found all this stuff 2 months or so ago...

    My situation is that i met a great girl, we initially met and she sent a text message the next day saying she "wasn't looking for anything right now", i was cool with this i wasn't that into her then. But after getting to know her a bit i decided i did want more and i told her, she said she regretted saying she saw me only as a friend. So we dated a bit, made out quite passionately after the first date and the second.... but then a few days later, bang: LJBF. I told her i was disappointed and that we probably wouldn't be able to remain friends. She came back to me AGAIN, said she was confused and that she'd miss me too much if i was just a friend.

    So again, more dating, more kissing and then eventually sex. I thought i was obviously doing something right, but i can see now what a fool i was. I was so into this girl i made all the wrong moves, telling her how great she was, buying her little presents, sending her letters, never saying no to her, always being there, and we emailed and sent text messages to each other every day. I was a total wuss and must have looked desperate, there was absolutely no challenge for her.

    So guess where i am now.... back in the friend zone. She said she wanted it to work, "you're a great guy etc... i fancy you, but there's something missing, and i'm just not attracted to you".

    How do i get out of this mess? Thing is i practically begged for her not to end things and made a total fool of myself, but managed to resurrect things by saying i was cool with being friends and that maybe it just wasn't meant to be anyway. She's since emailed me "just to say hello" saying she wants to meet to catch up - i haven't yet replied.

    I want to turn this around and get her chasing me a little and i know i can learn from some of the many mistakes i made. I don't even know if i want anything long term with her, but i was almost there and i want to get this right. You'll probably say not to go back in again, but i want to recover this and see it as a challenge.

    What's the best way to start? Ignore her for a little while and then agree to meet, tell her how busy i am etc Then what about when we do meet up, how do i take charge?

    I don't think this is a normal LJBF case, and i know she's not the sort to do this just for the thrill of being chased or mess with people's heads, i know her quite well. It's just i messed things up by being such a wuss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Ghost_ View Post
    get rid of this "but there was one big difference, she actually responds to txts/email " Its too reactive. If you were really a cool guy with lots going on his his life, would you care if one girl didn't respond to a text?
    Thanks, ghost. Do you think I should send her the "I met your twin" deal verbatim? Like I said, I'm new to this, so I want to have my ducks in a row so I have something more than just the opener. I plan on negging her because I think part of my issue was that I led her to believe I was needy and looking to jump into a relationship, so I need to reverse that frame and also bring her back down and raise my own value.

    I've been looking around on the site a little bit, trying to find some non-specific negs I can use in conjunction with some things specific to her.

    Has anyone actually followed through on this and how did it go? I haven't seen a lot of responses with results!!!

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    So it's been about a week and a half since this girl that I'm going to try to reverse the frame with and I had contact. Last thing I sent her via txt was "big plans for the week?" with no response ever.

    I put up some new pics on facebook and she commented on one that had her friend and my friend in it saying "sorry I couldn't make it out this night." She wasn't really sorry, she was just saying that cuz I made a funny comment about our friends faces being really bored-looking.

    Anyway...

    I thought about sending her a note saying "there you are, I thought you fell off the planet" and maybe going from there as my open to start talking to her again....I'm struggling with where to go once I open with this chick, though, because she sometimes is slow getting back via txt, and sometimes just simply stops responding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spkeehan View Post
    "there you are, I thought you fell off the planet"
    In general it is not a good idea to say things like this. It implies that you have been waiting to see her again, even if you aren't or haven't. The fact that you NOTICE that she hasn't been around gives her a lot of value... so be careful with this.

    In your case, since you've already tried to get in touch with her and she doesn't seem to be responding, I would definitely not admit to noticing her absence.

    Cane

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Cane_ View Post
    In general it is not a good idea to say things like this. It implies that you have been waiting to see her again, even if you aren't or haven't. The fact that you NOTICE that she hasn't been around gives her a lot of value... so be careful with this.

    In your case, since you've already tried to get in touch with her and she doesn't seem to be responding, I would definitely not admit to noticing her absence.

    Cane
    I hadn't thought of it that way, Cane, but that makes a lot of sense.

    I plan on sending her a text with the "twins" opener, just like the original post. I am just looking for follow ups and how to get the ball rolling. I've been reading Magic Bullets and a lot of the posts here, but they focus on a new situation with someone you don't really have any history with yet.

    I want to neg her because I know she feels her value is higher than mine. And where do I go from there? Do you try to see them in person like for drinks to move on to the next steps? Or is it a purely msg game through txt/email?

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    Dude, I've been looking for a step by step escalation kind of thing for ages.
    I do these things all the time but it's awesome to see someone else put it down on paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magicsooty View Post
    Dude, I've been looking for a step by step escalation kind of thing for ages.
    I do these things all the time but it's awesome to see someone else put it down on paper.
    So I tried the whole text "I met your twin" with no response.

    I waited a couple of days, and sent "so what kind of trouble are you causing today?" again with no response which is very unlike her. I saw on her facebook she may be out of town, so not sure if that is why, but I'm just going to try giving her a call tomorrow since Fridays are the days she comes to the same town and if she doesn't answer, or return anything....she gone.

    Meanwhile, I've been working other game, so it makes it a lot easier to put just a little effort into this one, but if it falls through, I'll be alright.

    I still haven't seen really any success stories from this....

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    Didn't expect it, but she called me back and wants to get together tomorrow. I said yes, too bad I already have another date. Looks like I'll be out with two different women tomorrow night.....

    Question is....where to begin with the one I'm trying to get out of the friends zone with? She is a tough cookie....texted her a whole bunch and no response and she called while she was in a cab on the way home from a bar tonight.

    Any suggestions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spkeehan View Post
    Didn't expect it, but she called me back and wants to get together tomorrow. I said yes, too bad I already have another date. Looks like I'll be out with two different women tomorrow night.....

    Question is....where to begin with the one I'm trying to get out of the friends zone with? She is a tough cookie....texted her a whole bunch and no response and she called while she was in a cab on the way home from a bar tonight.

    Any suggestions?
    Have fun. Don't put too much pressure on yourself. I'm reading through your replies it seems like you might be a little too worried about whats going to happen. Its fine to feel that way, I do occassionally for girls I really like, just becareful how that translates in your decision making and your behavior.

    You don't want to show as much attention to a girl as you are describing. "Texted her a bunch with no response" is a clear display of neediness and girls notice things like this. Its like nagging them. It puts a lot of pressure on her to decide that she likes you because the only reason a guy would blow up her phone with unresponded text conversation is because you are either bored (and boring), have no other options, or are desperate for her, none of which are things that will attract a girl. She may not feel the same way about you or be ready for that kind of attention, YET. You need to DEVELOP and ADJUST your relationship with her before she'll respond. A lot of times I text girls and I don't even care if they text back really. It sounds stupid but its true. I have an interesting life that doesn't include me waiting around for people to give me attention. Sitting around wondering if she is going to respond and texting her over and over is only going to drive you mad.

    You are also asking a lot of questions about other people that may or may not have had "success with this". When in reality, no one else's triumphs or failed attempts have anything to do with what happens between you and her.

    Trust in yourself. Act like you deserve her. Don't be needy. And enjoy the process more then the outcome...

    Sorry if this hasn't helped bud. But I say go for it and fuck hindsight.

    Cane

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    Trying to make a friend more

    I recently (past month) have started talking to a beautiful girl in my school. We have talked quite a bit, and I feel like there is some attraction from her towards me, that I might be able to bring out more, if I could be helped with some advice. She has a boyfriend, who is much older than the both of us, and who I am not sure I could compete with. However, she seems to show a lot of interest in me. I usually initiate conversation with her, but she's always happy to talk to me. Has she already put me into the friend zone? According to the advice here, should I just not make convo with her for a few weeks, just say hi to her when I pass by her, and then try and be flirty?
    Thanks
    Jon

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    Update if anyone is reading....

    Had plans with my girl for Friday to get some drinks. Her friend (who is dating my good buddy) backed out of going out, so she flaked, too. Lame. I was planning on being in her city on Saturday, so I told her I would be and if she was around, we should hook up. So she txts me last night and asks where I am. I tell her and we go back and forth about where to meet and when. Ends up that she was with a group of friends, so she left them and took a cab to meet up with me and my buddy.

    She said the cab was expensive, so I told her I would pick it up...which I did. She thanked me big time for that. Anyway....I tried to be as teasing/non-sexual as I could. Negged her quite a bit, but never mentioned her ignoring my txts or anything. She was pretty drunk, and ended up moving in to kiss me. I denied her. Just whispered "nuh uh" and moved my face away. Continuing through the nite and ended up driving her home. She invited me to stay, but I kinda gave this long pause and thought about it. I said I was thinking of going home and she was like "but you shouldn't be driving" Seemed like she was making an excuse for me to stay and I wanted to, but I also wanted to leave to make her want more. I caved and stayed. She put on this little itty bitty night gown and invited me straight to bed. We got it, and began kissing. We ended up getting pretty hot and heavy, but as I was making the move to remove the panties, so said "no." Damn, this just after she took off the night gown!!!

    So I spent the night, and we rolled around in bed all morning, mostly me rubbing her skin, kissing her neck, etc. I think I may have moved into kino/sexual attraction too fast. We'll see.

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    I'm going to give a little and ask for a little in this reply

    This is an excellent post because for obvious reasons we all hate the friend zone...unless its a fatty that likes us haha. Maybe I missed it in someones response and maybe I'm just stating the obvious but two things to add to everything.

    1. WORK ON YOUR GAME BIG TIME (especially inner game) in those 3 weeks to month or two you haven't seen her. Don't just read this thread and memorize it and then try again and expect different results, though I firmy believe this will help. Re-read MM and other books, get on here and ask questions and read peoples threads, go out and sarge big time and GET HER OFF YOUR MIND. fogettaabouther!! Something very big that I learned recently is that if you are constantly thinking about this girl and counting down the clock until you can send that little text and re initiate contact then SHE HAS THE DOMINATING EDGE ON YOU. Which what guy likes to be dominated whether its physically, mentally, or emotionally? of course you are going to think about her... but manage it. I'm not saying everyone falls into this category of obsession it seems but i know its happened to all of us. so if thats happening with this girl you need to work on your game so when you do meet up with her, you're essentially different.

    2. I know someone said in this thread to be in control of the conversation. VERY TRUE....even more true the way that a lot of us fall into the LJBF category is we are nice and there for them and will listen to their bullshit about how they had a bad day.... fortunately if you and her are reinitiating contact, the first time should be light and catching up which is good, but if you keep talking to her and things pop off well. Don't fall into listening to her shit and "always being there for her" cuz this is BIG friend zone.


    Thats my two cents, that i've recently learned because of falling into this category...now heres my question....
    __________________________________________________ ___________


    it's funny because a girl that I put into the friend zone a long time ago now put ME into the friendzone.. or so i think. i guess thats where my questions falls into play... (trust me that stings when you think about it, talk about karma)

    either way my question is if she says "I'm too busy to have a LTR right now?" if thats the same thing as "LJBF?" I mean I know her life is really busy and thats not bullshit, ive seen it first hand. But because I've used that excuse so many times on girls who wanted to be with me, I can't help and be paranoid about it.

    We talk almost everyday if not every other day, because she still calls me, but I dunno if you guys have had this before where you just FEEEEEEEELLL and know you are slipping more and more into the friend zone with her. The past two times we've hung out in the past 2 weeks we've held hands, cuddled, but the kissing, sex, and flirting has seemed to dissapate which makes even the cuddling and holding hands feel like its just pointless and not even enjoyable. when we were cuddling last week i put my hand on her stomach and she removed it and put in on her leg instead and she said that she felt insecure cuz she felt "fat." I don't know whether to read into that or not....? as maybe I'm slipping in comfort, attraction, or seduction??

    I have somewhat had a relationship with this girl last spring but it didn't work out to her being "too busy with life," obviously as I've said we've had sex. And when she came around this past fall I figured that meant she was ready because we had to cut off our friendship and I told her "were on two different pages, its not working, I think it could if we both were on the same page bla bla bla"

    in fact when I put her into the friend zone a long time ago before I started to have feelings for her, she was IN LOVE with me and I didn't do ANYTHING except act like a friend when we hung out, because I actually wanted her to not like me (which i see that never works now hahah) besides hooking up a few times which was done by her initiating and I told her that (bceause damn she was fine, just too clingy at the time) She knew when we used to hook up as friends that it was only still going to be friends...I made that clear and known.

    so going back....

    Question 1: Even if she really is busy, which I've witnessed first hand she is. Could "I'm too busy right now to have a relationship" also mean "LJBF???"


    Question 2: Because the sex factor/relationship factor has taken place before with us, and I feel like regardless I'm still slipping into the friendzone... how should I approach this with her?? I saw something about the "jealousy plot" or something but my computer wouldn't let me open it.



    Thanks fellas!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMoney15 View Post
    either way my question is if she says "I'm too busy to have a LTR right now?" if thats the same thing as "LJBF?" I mean I know her life is really busy and thats not bullshit, ive seen it first hand. But because I've used that excuse so many times on girls who wanted to be with me, I can't help and be paranoid about it.
    This absolutely does not mean she put you in the friendzone. MOST girls I meet these days will be "talking"/"fuck buddy"/"unofficially dating" with several guys at a time. She is keeping her options open. Which is totally common, and in my opinion, practical in todays dating culture. It could be because she wants to spend some time with each guy before deciding which option is best for her. She could have any number of reasons for it. It really doesn't matter what those reasons are for now. What she is saying by that is simply "I don't want to commit a lot of time to you yet and I don't want you to expect me to spend a lot of time with you yet."

    Quote Originally Posted by CMoney15 View Post

    We talk almost everyday if not every other day, because she still calls me, but I dunno if you guys have had this before where you just FEEEEEEEELLL and know you are slipping more and more into the friend zone with her. The past two times we've hung out in the past 2 weeks we've held hands, cuddled, but the kissing, sex, and flirting has seemed to dissapate which makes even the cuddling and holding hands feel like its just pointless and not even enjoyable. when we were cuddling last week i put my hand on her stomach and she removed it and put in on her leg instead and she said that she felt insecure cuz she felt "fat." I don't know whether to read into that or not....? as maybe I'm slipping in comfort, attraction, or seduction?
    Whether she is being honest about feeling fat or not is irrelevent. In any case, it is just a form of resistance.

    p.s. enjoy everything about being near, around, with and inside of a girl. simply having sex as "your only enjoyable goal" will make you breathe sweat and shit sexual neediness. Girls probably enjoy foreplay and cuddly cupcakey shit just as much as sex. To them your skipping the race and going straight for the finish line. If you fail to give them the other less "enjoyable" forms of physical contact, they will decide you just want them for sex (which is not enough for most girls).


    I'll read more through your post and try to help later.. got to go.

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    That'd be awesome, I'd appreciate it! thanks man!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMoney15 View Post
    Question 2: Because the sex factor/relationship factor has taken place before with us, and I feel like regardless I'm still slipping into the friendzone... how should I approach this with her?? I saw something about the "jealousy plot" or something but my computer wouldn't let me open it.
    I say there is no such thing as the friendzone with any girl that you've hooked up with multiple times. You've already crossed that threshold and can never go back. In her mind, your automatically in a different category of guys.

    I can't really tell you how to achieve whatever it is that you want. But, I would say the longer you go without having sex with her, the less likely you guys will have sex. Thats because the escalation will come to a stand still and it will just seem awkward and weird I think. It may have already been too long.

    I have an ex-gf right now that I am like that with. We do everything but have sex. I think if I tried she would probably let me fuck her, but when I did that like a year ago she cried during sex and shit like that.. so I'm not in any hurry to do that again. Too much past feelings involved.

    Here is my advice to you.

    Ask yourself this question. Am I going after girls I've already had sex with because I think it will be easier then finding someone new?

    Chris

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    Ideally I'd like to be in a relationship with this girl. I know she is truly a hell of a girl from even when we were friends tho she was too clingy when ever she thought I was giving her the impression that I liked her as more than a friend.

    We then hooked up and realized, unfortunately, but after her dating 1 or 2 guys that fucked her over that she kinda mellowed out and was more protected than just giving herself away sexually and emotionally..and I always told my buddy "damn I could totally date her if she just wasn't so fucking clingy"

    So essentially when she stopped being clingy we dated for awhile, then I started to be clingy i realized (ugh. i can kick myself for it a hundred times) - we decided that because she was too busy in life it just wasn't going to work right now.

    I thought that when she came around again this fall that she was finally ready after our initial conversation 2 months prior. So things started pickin up for a month or so and I started acting like a boyfriend, she was acting like a girlfriend...then outta no where she dropped the "I can't have a serious boyfriend right now" on me one night in the midst of a casual conversation, which caught me by surprise. So my intention is to date her...I don't want to say that I'm outcome dependent, but its gone so far with her we have reached the point where there just can't be a casual relationship... she knows I like her too which is BAD! she mentioned it one time and said something like "yeaaah thats cuz you like me!" and I didn't know what to say to that...hahah fuck me.

    Maybe I should just do what you said and drop off for awhile, and I've started to drop off... I didn't talk to her for 4 days and she called and left a message like "uhh I think you're mad at me" which i replied with "noo I'm just really busy and I know you are too so I hadn't had a chance to call" so maybe I'll take your good ol' advice and drop off for awhile then pick it back up later because I feel like I'm being to clingy.... again...ugh.

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    would this work with your ex who you had sex with and is really good friends with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GArmstrong View Post
    would this work with your ex who you had sex with and is really good friends with?
    Yes. But the slower you do the kino steps, the more it will seem like you're escalating towards being in a relationship with that person again. This is a perception that girls have. Slower = More serious. Fast = Less Serious.

    If you escalate fast (and get away with it of coarse) and fuck her... she'll probably assume you're undecided/casual FB sex. But you still have the option of spending more time with her, and hence, it will escalate towards a relationship, maybe.

    Or if you escalate really slow... it will seem like the "Falling in love" scenario all over again and she'll think you want a relationship. Like you are taking things slow because its this big serious relationshippy type thing going on. Which could also be bad if she just wants your ship to dock temporarily before it unloads its cargo and goes back out to sea again.

    Make Sense?

    (This applies to all girls, not just girls you've already been sexified with. It just is more important when going back to girls you've already fucked. Because many of your EX's will NOT prefer to be in a situation where you're exploring getting back together. In fact, I'd never play it that way anyways)

    Cane

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    It just is more important when going back to girls you've already fucked. Because many of your EX's will NOT prefer to be in a situation where you're exploring getting back together. In fact, I'd never play it that way anyways)
    im not sure i understand that. can you explain that more in detail?

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    my situation is like a hill

    me and this girl known each other for about a year now. Im a senior in high school so the whole game is pretty different in a sense. She flirts with me in class and gives me IoI's but boys mess with her in class so she gives them IoI's or fake IoI's depending because she isnt a flirt at all but you may feel it coming off that way. Shes a little bit of a tomboy so i cant come off very flirtatious. When im around her i come of AFC sometimes because i think i overthink things.We never did anything like kissing or holding hands. I cant just leave the situation and not talk to her for 2-3 weeks because i have 3 periods with her where we sit right next to each other. She says she likes me and all and her friends like me but i purposely put them on the side for her plus i dont find them attractive(im kind of shallow). When i hit her with negs she usually gets mad which is very difficult to me. I just want to feel validated and to get her more flirtatious with me because i have very strong feelings for her and at times i can have passive jealous thoughts if i see her messing with me and the next guy initiates with her and she plays with him back. Can someone give me advice

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    How to eliminate contact

    Hello ALL.. Excellent topic.

    This is my 1st post in this forum. I was wandering what is the best way to achieve STEP 1: Removing myself from her?

    1) Should I not reply to her calls?
    2) Should I reply to her SMSs asking me of what I am doing for the night and so on?
    3) Should I tell her that I am seeing this other girl and I am quite busy?
    4) Should I just disappear?
    5) During this period, there shouldn't be any contact, not even a single HELLO via SMS kind of thing?

    Thank you very much for the advice and looking forward putting them to test.

    Cheers,
    Alex

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    Quote Originally Posted by zerocool28 View Post
    Hello ALL.. Excellent topic.

    This is my 1st post in this forum. I was wandering what is the best way to achieve STEP 1: Removing myself from her?

    1) Should I not reply to her calls?
    2) Should I reply to her SMSs asking me of what I am doing for the night and so on?
    3) Should I tell her that I am seeing this other girl and I am quite busy?
    4) Should I just disappear?
    5) During this period, there shouldn't be any contact, not even a single HELLO via SMS kind of thing?

    Thank you very much for the advice and looking forward putting them to test.

    Cheers,
    Alex
    Welcome bro! I'll try to answer these in order, but Cane may give you different advice from what I say...

    1. You can answer the calls, but just answer with a quick "Hey, good to hear from you. I'm in the middle of something right now, I'll call you back." But DON'T CALL HER BACK.

    2. Replying to texts are OK, as texting takes little to no time. However, don't have long, drawn out conversations with her through the texts...a couple replies, then say you have something to do. Also, don't reply to her texts right away...let her wait!

    3. I wouldn't flat-out tell her that you're seeing other girls, unless she asks. It'll be implied that something is going on when you stop returning her calls and/or taking a long time to reply to her texts.

    4. I'm not too sure if I understand what you mean by disappear. If you're constantly seeing her in class, work, gym, etc., then you'll have to figure out a way to avoid seeing her. If you do run into her though, don't act like something is wrong. You can have a short conversation with her, then say you were just about to go do something and you'll catch up with her later on.

    5. During your "break" from each other, YOU shouldn't initiate any contact with her. If she initiates with you, that's something out of your control. Just keep the responses to a minimum...

    I hope that answers your questions as to what you should do. Anyone else chime in if you think differently than I do...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pimp2Mack View Post
    Welcome bro! I'll try to answer these in order, but Cane may give you different advice from what I say...

    1. You can answer the calls, but just answer with a quick "Hey, good to hear from you. I'm in the middle of something right now, I'll call you back." But DON'T CALL HER BACK.

    2. Replying to texts are OK, as texting takes little to no time. However, don't have long, drawn out conversations with her through the texts...a couple replies, then say you have something to do. Also, don't reply to her texts right away...let her wait!

    3. I wouldn't flat-out tell her that you're seeing other girls, unless she asks. It'll be implied that something is going on when you stop returning her calls and/or taking a long time to reply to her texts.

    4. I'm not too sure if I understand what you mean by disappear. If you're constantly seeing her in class, work, gym, etc., then you'll have to figure out a way to avoid seeing her. If you do run into her though, don't act like something is wrong. You can have a short conversation with her, then say you were just about to go do something and you'll catch up with her later on.

    5. During your "break" from each other, YOU shouldn't initiate any contact with her. If she initiates with you, that's something out of your control. Just keep the responses to a minimum...

    I hope that answers your questions as to what you should do. Anyone else chime in if you think differently than I do...
    Thank you for the super fast reply...

    To give you a better understanding of the situation: I talk with my LJBF every day and we usually go out together 2-3 times a week.. Often we end up with other friends at bars, clubs and so on.. Often I pick her up and sometimes she picks me up... I have spoken to her that I do not consider her to be a friend or at least I do not want to be labeled as a "friend" and made my romantic interest known to her.. Her response was in the lines of "This is not the right time... I am not looking for anything at the moment (She was dating a guy for a year and dumped her a month ago since he was gay)... I do not believe we click that much.."

    Since then we keep going out as I find her helpful to approach other women but I still want to do something with her.. I am going to follow the game plan here and see how it goes..

    40 minutes ago she messaged me "Hey friend. Did you get enough rest? What are you up to?" (I haven't talked to her since Sunday at which point I told her it was a tiring weekend).. I haven't replied yet. What should I say and when to reply? I want to start STEP 1 of the plan tonight to get it rolling. My plan is to invite her in three weeks at my apartment (currently moving into) for dinner since it is something I told her that we would do once I moved and I think is the perfect excuse to start STEP 2?

    Any thoughts, answers to the above situation?

    Thank you
    Alex

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    Quote Originally Posted by zerocool28 View Post
    Hello ALL.. Excellent topic.

    This is my 1st post in this forum. I was wandering what is the best way to achieve STEP 1: Removing myself from her?

    1) Should I not reply to her calls?
    2) Should I reply to her SMSs asking me of what I am doing for the night and so on?
    3) Should I tell her that I am seeing this other girl and I am quite busy?
    4) Should I just disappear?
    5) During this period, there shouldn't be any contact, not even a single HELLO via SMS kind of thing?

    Thank you very much for the advice and looking forward putting them to test.

    Cheers,
    Alex
    Step 1 basically saids eliminate contact, and after reading your brief history...well, lets just get to you questions.
    1. I would not reply to her calls at all. If she calls, i'll just let hit my voice mail. Im too busy to answer anways. I will not call at all.
    2. if she sends me a text message, i will let her wait before i text back with a very short and vague message and then cut off contact for that night.
    3. I would do Pimp2Mack's reply.
    4. Disappear as in go completely off the map? Nah. I would just stay really busy with other things that are more important. If i see her daily, just a quick hi, i gotta run will do for me.
    5. The point of this period is to cut off contact, so if you two are still talking, or whatever, i would slowly cut off ALL contact.

    But then again, this is what i would do. Def. feel free to intervene!

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    In the same situation right now... Been friends with her for about 2 months. She invited me to a hockey game(she dances for the team, paid for the tickets). Well... her boyfriend flaked on her so we hung out(was supposed to meet another girl after the game). Ended up at the same club as the other girl, but I played it cool. Talked to both of them. She started feeling sick so I told her to go home. She said she didn't want to go home because she was afraid I was gonna sleep with the other girl. So she stayed and we talked until 5 in the morning. Kino was good. Put my around her, danced, long hug(seemed very happy to be in my arms, didn't want to let go). I know I could have kissed her, but I didn't pull the trigger. Have this stupid rule about girls with boyfriends.

    Anyways, she told me she was ready to leave her boyfriend and be with me until halloween night when she ran into nichole(the other girl) at the club. Nichole started making up shit about how we talk all the time and I call her "baby." So now she thinks I'm a player. I told nichole we should just be friends and then I told Sara(the girl I want to be with) that I think we should be together(BIG MISTAKE... Never do this. totally ruins your value). She said that I'm charming, sexy, charismatic, funny, blah,blah, blah. She said she is very attracted to me, but the distance between us is a problem(we live 2hrs apart). She said she doesn't want to give up on her boyfriend, but that the moment they break up, she's gonna call me...

    This was on tuesday... Had a good conversation and made her laugh right before I ended the call. Haven't talked since then. Kinda stuck now.

    What should my next move be? Kinda confused now... I know I want her to come back to me.

  70. #70
    ForeverBlitz Guest

    This is my first post, and I just wanted to say that this has been great info! I've been trying to figure out a way out of the FZ with this girl I have known for years, which has been one hell of a mess that it threatend to completely ruin me. I decided the best thing to do was to seperate myself from her completely and that perhaps in time I would see her again (I really do, and it's been tough seeing as how we live not ten minutes from each other and have the same same friends for as long as we've known each other). It's been almost ten months since I've spoken to her, though I have seen her on several times walking in the street while I've been on the bus. But now after reading all these stories and advice I have an idea of how to approach the situation which I intended on doing, but with a better idea. Thanks to all who've contributed, it's been a huge help and motivation.

    -FB

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkefthrlkeson View Post

    What should my next move be? Kinda confused now... I know I want her to come back to me.
    I suppose the problem now is that she knows that too...

    I don't think you can do anything. Sit tight and wait to see if she calls, let her make the next move.

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    Super Newbie Could Use Some Advice (Please)

    What's up, guys? I'd consider myself a super newbie, because I just registered less than 3 minutes ago, I'm still not sure what all the terms mean, I've never attended a seminar or a workshop, and the first time I'd even heard such a community exists was yesterday, when I bought "The Game", which I'm not even half through with yet. Needless to say, I could use some help.

    I probably do have a case one-itis. I'm not even sure if I'm in the friend zone with this girl or not, but still I figured topic in the forum could help me out a lot with her.

    I've known her for two months. We work together. We had an instant connection and have gone out a few times, but they haven't really been what you'd call dates. She's thrown some IOI's (for instance if she doesn't hear from me for awhile she'll text me or email me. We tease each other often, she likes to talk about relationships around me... not past ones, but what she wants in a relationship, she told me tonight she missed me after not seeing me for nearly a week, and also told me that I'm the one person at work she really enjoys working with and hanging out with), but nothing that I recognize as being super concrete. There's more I haven't listed, but still I'm concerned that because she hasn't come out and said "I like you" and because she's more.... "cool" and "whatever" about things (all things, not just relationships), that I might be in the friend zone.

    Anybody have any thoughts, based on what I just said if I am? Any ideas on how to find out, without making it looks like I'm finding out? Is it possible to have known a girl for two months and remain on the level we're at and NOT be in the friend zone?

    I sure wouldn't hate your thoughts and advice! Thanks ya'll (that's right... I'm from Texas).

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    strategy question, newbie help please

    Please be kind! I am new to all this!

    Thx

    I have all the books, etc, the story is as follows, I was LJBF'd about a year ago by a HB9 when I was an AFC (TOTAL AFC!! - told her she was ovely, all that stuff, BIG mistake)

    Anyway, our paths cross from time to time with the odd text email, meeting at mutual places where we go, etc.

    2 or 3 weeks ago did the jealousy thing with a pawn /pivot in a bar.

    Just nodded and waved to HB9 on the way out.

    Got a text 'you and HB9 (2) seem to get on well'

    Just replied, 'Yeah, she's great fun, we have a good laugh, l8r'

    This morning had an email, 'how you doing, etc'

    Do I ignore it?
    Say, yeah, fine, been a bit busy?
    Say, yeah, fine, how are you?

    I really believe that if done properly this will work.

    All suggestions welcome.

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    Great posts Cane. And I'm loving your avatar! haha!

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    Working My Way Out of the Friend Zone

    First off thanks to Cane and all the posters in this post (forum).

    This was one of the first posts I read on this forum simply because I've fallen in to this category far far to many times (horrible kino and closing game has held me here). It's my adaption of Canes method and its still a work in progress but in one aggresive day I reframed her opinion.

    Context: University Campus, Friends for a solid year, friendly/flirty relationship however little to no Kino ever, she is just out of a long term relationship (why I never went for her before). She's told me I'm in the friend zone.

    Overall Process:

    - Disqualify Her (My reason: Don't hook up with girls that just got out of a long term relationship.)
    - Cocky Funny / Reframing Myself More Sexually- Poking fun at her but also giving her funny embarrassing stories. (note I seemed to have hit the perfect mix as so many of these cocky-funny stories were retold to me by other people.)
    - Kino & Compliance- Created a reason for her to kiss me several times (read below)
    - Jealousy Plotline - Get another girl interested in you infront of her
    - Pay less attention to her than normal and make her work for your attention-
    - more kino, cocky funny and overall charm -

    Result - Her trying to get herself out of the friendzone with me.

    Details of event below:

    When this HB8 (+1 bonus marks for a personality I'd fuck if I could) broke up with her long term BF I decided I wanted to push myself out of the friendzone so I started taking steps. Discovered this forum and The Game a week later. A bunch of guys were interested in her and so I did the opposite I disqualified her I told her

    "You might have had 4 suitors but I don't hook up with women who are just out of long term relationships." - this is actually true as I find I get dumped into friend zone even when I think I'm doing well.

    I leave it at that and proceed with our normal friendly/flirty thing but I amp it up and insert more sexual cocky/funny scenarios.

    Example: We're in the library looken for some books and I make a joke about sex in kinky places and then follow it up by some light kino to the arm, talking louder, "y'know I'm sure the people studying on the otherside of this aisle would rather listen to us have sex than concentrate on what they're studying." shes somewhat stunned but laughing and definitely her minds wandering. this turns in to a more sexual talk about kinky places to have sex.

    I do this sporadically each time around other people that gets reactions from others and it gives her embarassing/funny stories to tell her friends (side note - she has so many smoking hot friends.).

    She hooks up with one of the guys with my advice of just having fun sine shes just out of a relationship and all. She starts coming to me for advice and whatnot and after a little while I say over MSN,
    REB - "I'm gonna have to start charging for this advice soon"
    HB8 - "I'm a poor student though! What are your rates?"
    REB - "hmm... we'll have to worken somethen out. i'll take a kiss."
    HB8 - "Wow thats cheap!"

    At this point I considered a few ways of responding:
    Option a) Cocky Funny - I didn't say where you would be kissing.
    Option b) Nonchalant like - You do what ya gotta do for your friends
    Option c) Sweet/Romantic - Depends what ya value the kiss at.

    I went with option c for two reasons - I know shes the romantic type and its more like who I am and if we'd hook up I would be a sweet romantic like guy with her so its more naturally me.

    HB8 - "That was possibly one of the sweetest things anyone has ever said to me."
    REB - "heh, now that the terms are set.....more advice. " (aka dump his ass.)
    and I moved on.

    Now I wasn't really thinking about it at the time but this was my huge intro to Kino with this girl. I already had her trust and now I was finding an excuse for her to kiss me. I took advantage of this the next day.

    First thing in the morning we had class together I'm always late so I find her and grab a seat next to her. Bit of fluffing and then I say,
    REB - "Arn't you forgetting something?" and tap my cheek without looking at her, immediately kissed me in the middle of class. I acted like it was nothing and moved on. Class ended and she asked me a rand question I answered and then tapped my cheek again, boom kissed again.

    For anyone with oneitus or just really into a friend having her kiss you even if its on the cheek is a huge confidence boost. I proceeded to escalate the situation throughout the day.

    Another girl I was doing a project with got my attention and I ditched my HB8 to give this girl attention and we started a group project meeting me, this girl a HB7 (Perfect ass though, damn) and some other guy. So we're sitting in our faculties student lounge all 3 of us on a couch, my HB8 and a bunch of friends not to far off. I had the guy next to me and the girl to far away to flirt with so I repositioned myself to be beside the girl and moved her into the middle of the couch. Her labtop was what we were worken on, hence the excuse to move.

    I started DHV'ing and kino with this girl almost immediately while we fluffed about the project. Gradually our legs were pressed against each other and we had kino exchanges with our arms every so often. I then went for a jealousy plotline for the HB8 while DHVing myself to HB7. I went to my other group of friends and became the life of the group, telling a huge DHV story getting them all laughing and started talking to a girl in the group who I hadn't before, I spent the least amount of attention on my HB8 and she kept calling me out to get my attention.After building up that I went back to my HB7 and group project.

    I went back to the same position with the HB7, pressed against each other and then the other dude in the group took off. Me and HB7 with a full couch didnt move. HB8 noticed. And noticed. My friends invited us out to go grab a bite but I turned it down immediately not giving HB7 a chance to say yes.

    HB7 started talking about being hungry and I took one step backwards and was like "I feel like a nap. Why don't you go get food." but she pushes, "do you like "this type of food... I found the best place" I give in and go for two reasons I'd been looking for the best of this type of food since starting school here and this was just going so smoothly I went for it.
    fluff fluff fluff, amazing food (bonus marks for this girl.)

    Now....What can anyone tell me about a girl who practically has an orgasm over the food she is eating. This girl was moaning and reacting to food like I've never seen. The food was incredible but... damn.
    fluff fluff fluff, take this girls # on the basis that I gotta show her a damn good restaurant since she showed me one and then ditched her.

    I'll cut this short as its getting to long... Found my HB8 and she was showing signs of jealousy and she was escalating kino without me doing anything. She drops the question pretty randomly "so how long after a breakup does it take for a girl to get back on your datable list?"
    fluff fluff fluff all the while I'm high fiving myself in my head.

    Questions? Comments? Recommendations? High Fives!

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    Wow. You are a god.

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    haha good for you dude!

    I hope it works out for you.

    Cane

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    I haven't read every reply in this thread so I apologize if I'm repeating. I think this is pretty good solid advice. But realize getting a girl OUT of the friend zone that's been in there for any amount of time is one of THE hardest things to do. It's hard to change her mind. Because you are in her "friend" category. You need to get out and get in a new category. That's harder than meeting a new girl and getting in the sexual category right off the bat. Is it harder to drive straight into a parking spot, or back out of one, change position and drive into a different spot? You know?

    But IF you can do it, it's the same skills you'd use on a "fresh" girl, so there's nothing to loose. Just realize it's an uphill battle and will be much harder than starting fresh.

    What's missing is ATTRACTION. I disagree with the whole convoluted notion of some sexual tension, whatever, whatever, over-complicated. You're missing attraction; it's that simple. You've either made an approach or got social-circle introed. You have comfort if she is your friend. You're simply missing attraction. The teasing and kino is just a means of building attraction. Confidence and solid eye contact are equally, if not MORE important than the teasing/kino. So make SURE, you are looking this chick in the eye when you are talking to her. I'm serious. I never realized how important this was (important to get attraction!) and how BAD my eye contact was until I made a conscious effort to improve it.

    I F-closed a girl a while back that put me in the friend zone years ago. And it was pretty much what Cane said but all in one day, in like a 3 hour period at a party. I teased her over and over something along the lines of how SHE wanted ME. Light punches and nudges, more and more kino and then it was just On. Part of it was the logistics. It was MY party. So I had raging social proof (attraction switch) and a bedroom, to sneak her off into. Make no mistake, it wasn't foolsmate. I was DEEP in friend zone territory and had been for years. I realized I NEVER teased her before. And never teased with that "You are chasing ME" frame. That was the difference.

    I would caution AGAINST using Cane's "kino escalation plan" as written. Don't worry about it so much. Don't try to follow such a rigid plan. If you start thinking "Ok, I nudged her left arm, 3" above the elbow 13 minutes ago and now I'm gonna' bump her right hip at a 47 degree angle for 1 second, and then I'm gonna' put my arm over her shoulder in 6 minutes for 10 seconds MAX..." you are DONE. That guy is never gonna' get laid!! How are you ever going to have a normal, NATURAL progression when you're in your own head like that?? DONE!

    Instead just KNOW that you need to escalate kino. That's it! That's as much thought as you should give that. Focus more on the teasing and flirting and the kino will come naturally. You won't need to remind yourself to do it if you're flirting and teasing properly. She'll be like "Shut up!!!" and you'll naturally nudge her in some way. If it's PLANNED out, it's going to come off as fucking WEIRD and contrived.

    Cane's advice is SOLID. But lets simplify.

    • Break contact, to back your ass our of the "friend zone" parking spot.
    • Start teasing and flirting to get attraction when you reconnect.
    • Reset the frame to "YOU are chasing ME."
    • Kino escalate! But let it naturally follow your teasing.
    • Insert penis.

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    nice writeup. now when you say avoid contact from anywhere from 2-3 weeks or even 2-3 months, what if holidays and her birthday fall within that time-frame? Do you call or send a text to her acknowledging her birthday or even say merry xmas even if she hasn't contacted you at all? or what if she's comes online everyday for a few hours through IMs?

    or just keep quiet and hope she contacts you? I haven't spoken to a girl for about a week now and we haven't contacted each other since the last time we spoke online.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyntek View Post
    nice writeup. now when you say avoid contact from anywhere from 2-3 weeks or even 2-3 months, what if holidays and her birthday fall within that time-frame? Do you call or send a text to her acknowledging her birthday or even say merry xmas even if she hasn't contacted you at all? or what if she's comes online everyday for a few hours through IMs?

    or just keep quiet and hope she contacts you? I haven't spoken to a girl for about a week now and we haven't contacted each other since the last time we spoke online.
    My personal opinion is that it would depend on the strength of your friendship with the girl. If you've known her for 2 years and she has been a considerable part of your life, then you should honor your friendship with her. I think the adult perspective on that is that your friendship is indeed more important then your desire to advance sexually.

    Ask yourself this question. Is it normal for me to send her a happy birthday message? Is this as a random message that she is going look at her phone and say "huh? thats random, i wonder why he is texting me all the sudden"?

    Many guys do not even know their girlfriend's birthday. Let alone their girl-friend's birthdays. And if you send her a message on valentine's day, obviously that would be lame and non-congruent to your situation.

    My suggestion is to ELIMINATE ALL CONTACT. With the exception of life long friends.

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    hey guys I'm new to these boards. I was wondering if you think I still have a chance.

    I dated this girl back then...very sexual relationship then she just left. I had no contact with her for about a year. Now she is back in my life hanging out all the time with my best friends and I see her almost once a week now whenever my friends and I have time to hang out. My friends are even saying she is in our "inner circle" since she is now always there.
    I have not complimented her.
    I don't call her.
    I only hang out with her in groups.
    When I am around her I act normal and I don't follow her around everywhere and just act myself.
    She has showed interest in traveling with me to peru
    Which step should I start at now??? Her best friend told me that she thinks I am just friends. Has anyone tried this guide and has seen success??

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    Great write up man.

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    Okey, here's the situation.
    I definitively need some advice:

    Ex girlfriend. I mean 5 years ago. About 7 months ago I met her again with some of our common friends. She was someone's girlfriend, and I had a girlfriend myself. Anyway we started talking, MSN, etc.

    About 4 months ago we started doing things together, always with friends, etc.
    After another month, we had some intimacy. I mean, she came to my place to do something, etc. She was still seeing someone, so I never made a move. I mean, I liked her, but...

    Then, she broke up with the guy, and we started seeing each other more and more. She started throwing some IOIs on me. I started the flirting. Without knowing I was following this guide (in some way). The thing is. Last night I went for a Kclose, which I got. I really like this girl, so she told me that she was interested in me (sexually). Okey, I said, it was very late, so she had to get some sleep, and me too... this is a point in which I believe I made a mistake. After I get back to my house, she started talking to me on MSN, and dude, couldn't believe, but she LJBF'd me... not fully, but she said that our friendship was more important, that she didn't wanted to put that on risk (because she's a newbie in this kind of relationships), but that she didn't knew exactly if she would be able to control herself to that feeling.
    Anyways, we are also about to travel to Patagonia in a few days, only us two, so she didn't wanted to do this right now because the travel could go mad... (in case we have problems while we are traveling).

    What should I do!!!!? This is definitely a 10, but not for a LTR.

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    if she is going on a trip for 2 weeks, can i se that to my advantage?

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    I sent this to one of my friends who's been in the friend zone with more women that I can remember.. he thanks you guys. lol

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    Mistaken sucess

    Tonight a girl I almost hooked up with came to visit. (She is one of my roomates good friends) I been reading up on and following mystery's writings for about 2 months and decided to see if I could flip things around. We hadn't talked much in about a month. She was at my place when I got home. When I walked in she started hitting me with shit talking right outta the gate. (We have a very aggresive pattern. So. Cali does that to you.) Instead of giving ground I kept at it for bout 30 mins (dhv's all around, and quite a few negs.) She finally started to give ground. Instead of pouncing on the weakness like i'd usually do I started qualifying her and making her chase me. The reaction was amazing. She started trying to get my attention and when she did so in a way I liked I rewarded her with an ioi. (At this point I got mystery method whirring through my head.) She responded by trying that much harder. The thing that gets me is the kino escalation. I started kino as soon as she stopped being aggressive and started responding to my dhv's by showing ioi's. I started by sitting on the same couch as her after a smoke break. A few tease's and some dhv's she was moving over to me. I used the friend card to playfully demand a backrub. (At this point I had to get her to not stop rubbing a couple times.) I did this by saying "hey, ur not done yet" she'd keep going which to me was perfect since I'm working on physcial comfort. After a bit she was done (tired hands) so at this point I was tired to begin with so I told her I owed her one. (Locking in another kino encounter.) And sent her home after about 15 mins of hanging out with bodies touching. So best I can tell I did the right things without knowilng it. Hit part 2 of 6 for the advice on the topic and hoping I can hit the other 4 and bag this girl within 2 weeks. Thanks and please post ideas and thoughts. I appreciate the imput.

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    Need Help...Newbie

    What's up guys....New to the forums...love the info so far...here is my situation.

    I have know this girl for like 10 years been in the friedzone for 10 years...she has always had a BF as long as i have know her...off and on relationships. She has just broken off a 6 year relationship with her BF and has been single for about 4 months now. I have now been hanging out alot with her...taking on the phone late at night...escalating kino but only to a certain extent. Once it seems we are totaly in the moment to escalate to a kiss, etc... she puts a guard on....dont know if it is just because of getting out of a long relationship or what....any advice??

    thanks

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    I was going to post about this, but it's all in here

    one question, though it seems pretty clear;

    This will all work with someone I've been friends with for years?

    I'm guessing so because you break contact for a few weeks

    cheers

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    To the niceguy:

    The reason you arent escalating is because you are like her best friend i presume. This used to happen to me all the time and when your in that moment shes really not. Its like wtf is he doing. I say its pretty much done you probably wont get her but if youreally want her keep away from contact for a while as described and do the steps. But also you known her for 10 years which makes things pretty much a slim chance.

    Happy trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roly View Post

    Cane's advice is SOLID. But lets simplify.

    • Break contact, to back your ass our of the "friend zone" parking spot.
    • Start teasing and flirting to get attraction when you reconnect.
    • Reset the frame to "YOU are chasing ME."
    • Kino escalate! But let it naturally follow your teasing.
    • Insert penis.
    That last note was great ! !!

    Great Post.... like many others...this is my first post... great thread !!!

  91. #91
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    I have the perfect girl to use this on. I met her when I was in a LTR so of course we fell into the friend-zone... but now that I'm single this will be great to field test on her. I'll update you guys later. Great post!!!

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    I really like this man. I just have one question, when your taking the break from her in the intial 2 weeks, what do you do if she call sor text you?
    I only aks because I am going through this and I don't want to be rude to her, you know what I mean?

    Thanks guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Cane_ View Post
    A lot of people have posted about getting out of the LJBF zone. I did this recently and this How-To is basically how I did it.

    Eliminate Contact For A Few Weeks

    Remove yourself from her for a while. Sometimes 2-3 weeks is enough, sometimes a month or two. And I mean COMPLETELY. You should not see or talk to her. Your goal is to reset your associations with her and come back to her as if your "catching up" with each other and haven't seen each other for a while. When you come back to her it is important that you reverse the frame on her within the first few times you see her. Don't set a sexual frame at all, it will be unknown to her and she probably won't expect one of her "friends" to act like that. It will "shock/surprise" her. And you don't want that in this case. With a random sexual frame, she will react as being uncomfortable and it will be awkward.

    Reverse The Frame

    When I say reverse the frame, I mean to reverse it by carefully making it seem like she is the one who is wants you. This is one of the few situations where I would definitely disqualify her at an opportune time.

    For example, since you are friends, it's likely she will say something positive about you at some point. Especially if you haven't seen her for a while. Such as "I missed you!" Just say things like "oh geez, don't be clingy, you know I'm too good for you anyways..". But say it in a VERY jokingly way. Give her a gay little shuv even just for good measure. Make sure your smiling and she knows your just teasing. This should be done less cocky and more funny.

    Out Of The Friendzone, Into The "Flirty Zone"

    When you say these kinds of things every now and then, it will adjust your friendship into a flirty sort of one. This is how you eventually will get your opportunity to move from flirty to sexual. But once your LJBF'd, you cannot achieve the perception of a potential suitor until you cross into the "flirty zone". Once you achieve a flirtacious friendship, then you can advance it to flirting + light kino. See below for kino tactics. Flirting with her should start from the minute that you see her after your little two or three week "break".

    At first, it will be you flirting with her, keep it sarchastic and funny. Eventually, you should start to see her initiate flirtyness more often when you see her. The more often she gets flirty with you, the more closer you are to being able to move to the next step of getting out of LJBF.

    Proper Kino Escalation In A LJBF Situation

    Initial Kino should be punches in the arm, butt bumps, and lame gay shit like that cuz it is non-threatening. Speaking of your kino task. You should escalate in this order:

    1) nudging/arm punching/butt bumps when joking with each other

    2) Sitting closer together (if your on a couch, see if she lets you lay your head in her lap as if you were tired and falling asleep, lay your head on her lap with your back to her -- its less threatening)

    3) Put your arm around her neck while your walking&talking. Do this only for like 10-15 seconds or so, MAX, then release her. Keep doing this every so often until she responds by wrapping her arms around your waist. Until she wraps around your waist, do not move foward to the next kino step.

    4) When your walking with your arms around each other each other (above), let go and grab her hand. Then walk while holding hands for a minute or two and then let go.

    Act like this is all happenning naturally. It is important that you release her before she has the option to push you away.

    5) If you got away with holding hands, you can get away with kissing her. Don't kiss her the first time you hold hands.

    6) To kiss her: Wait until the 2nd time you hold hands (while walking&talking) and when you stop walking, so will she. Turn your shoulders towards her to face her slowly and closely. Lean in and kiss her. Don't lean in too much tho.

    These 6 kino steps should be a slow process that may take place over a few different days with her. Seperate each kino step by atleast 1-2 hours. Calibration is very important. If you go to much too fast? You blew it.

    You should never discuss "Dating" with her or say anything that implies that you want to date her. If you ask her out, tell her you want to "spend the day with her". And take her out and just chill with her, tease her, kino escalate, release. Your going to be doing A LOT of Bait Hook Reel Release.

    A great place to take her to accomplish a "day together" is the beach. Take her somewhere that you will do a lot of walking. Preferably the state fair, the beach, avoid the mall. Take her wine tasting, etc.. You'll need to do a lot of bumping/teasting/nudging/teasing etc... and you can't do that sitting down in a gay ass movie theater. DO NOT TAKE HER TO THE MOVIES.

    100% of the time you should maintain the idea that you didn't expect this to happen bla bla bla. But don't say it unless she says something first. You need to down play this whole experience. It will be very awkward to her if you push to fast, get to aggressive, talk about needy shit, have needy body language, etc...

    and thats "Get out of the LJBF Zone 101"... folks

    Best of Luck, Always.

  93. #93
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    I've already screwed it up!!!

    Hey all, brand new to this forum! Just finished the MM book, and damn wish I had it years ago! Anyway, lookin for some advice w/ me and a girl that's become my best friend over the last year or so. Long story short, we met, both of us were in relationships, bonded immediately, and boom, best friends (neither her nor I had any further intentions). Anyway, we both went through nasty break ups, and I invited her down for a weekend just to get away from everything (she lives in another state). At that point things started to change for at least me, (but definitely her in IOI's). before then we talked maybe once or twice a week through text, and a few times a month on the phone. After this weekend, every day on the phone, several hours a day. She came down again recently, and (before reading the book damn it), the first night we were sleeping in the same bed together, spooning, and I wake up, and she's tugging on my arm which indicated to me she was pulling me on her. I make my move, kiss her, and she kisses back then all of a sudden she says "hey easy". I move off and go back to sleep. Next night talk to her about it, and she claimed she didn't remember it. I proceeded to tell her how I felt about her, and expressed my intentions of moving it from a friendship further. She got all shy and "shocked", and claimed she didn't want to date her friends because it always screws things up. I blew it off told her it was no big deal and nothing's changed, rolled over and went back to sleep...she immediately drew back in. Ultimately, nothing happened.
    So we still have the same friendship...one that I've never had such heavy flirtation and explicit expressions of intentions, yet not. Specific examples message me individually, but I'm lost on this one. I don't have the luxory of cutting off contact since due to our work, we will be traveling together several times over the next few months...even 5 days together for a wedding. I'm wondering if there's anyway I can re-establish a stronger s and r value, increase attraction, use the comfort we've already developed, and move into c3, and progress into end game. I've already started using some more DHV's and IOD's with some positive results, and I never got a "I'm not interested in dating you specifically", so I'm hoping I still have a window of opportunity. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

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    If you've been best friends for a year how do you think you can turn her into your girlfriend? Don't you think it'd have happened by now?

    Loads of people find this thread and their first post on these forums is on this thread - it's how I got here. But nobody ever has a success story. If you're in the zone, you're in the zone. And if the two of you are rarely apart, then that just cements your place in friend zone territory even more.

    I was the same as you and found MM too late, or so I thought. But there are thousands of available women out there for you to game. And I'd suggest in this case your best chance is going to come from finding someone else. Not only does it give this girl a chance to become jealous but it gives you a chance to get her out of your head.

    Good luck, whatever happens, but like the rest of us I doubt you'll back on this thread in a few months time telling us of the amazing sex you're having with her.

  95. #95
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    Well, she lives out of state, so we aren't together often, it just so happens that we'll be getting together pretty frequently over the next few months. Nothing's happened between us because of the distance apart and the fact that both of us were in relationships prior to this. When she visited in dec we were in C2...when she visited a few weeks ago, I wanted to advance that, but went about it the "nice guy" way. But since I screwed up that window, and based on the level of comfort we have now, looks like I am stuck and I've gotta back down the friendship. I have already managed to make her jealous by my ex re-entering the picture, so like I said, I'm swinging for the fences here, so any additional ideas would help! I'm planning on doing some kino advances and compliance testing when we're together next to see if that helps any.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssggee View Post
    If you've been best friends for a year how do you think you can turn her into your girlfriend? Don't you think it'd have happened by now?

    Loads of people find this thread and their first post on these forums is on this thread - it's how I got here. But nobody ever has a success story. If you're in the zone, you're in the zone. And if the two of you are rarely apart, then that just cements your place in friend zone territory even more.

    I was the same as you and found MM too late, or so I thought. But there are thousands of available women out there for you to game. And I'd suggest in this case your best chance is going to come from finding someone else. Not only does it give this girl a chance to become jealous but it gives you a chance to get her out of your head.

    Good luck, whatever happens, but like the rest of us I doubt you'll back on this thread in a few months time telling us of the amazing sex you're having with her.

  96. #96
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    Does anyone have any advice for specific situations in working environments?
    When you have distractions constantly with other people butting in or customers and this and that it really puts a damper on everything not to mention these modern laws for supposedly protecting harrassment when other people could set you up that are jealous of you and the girl you are interested in.

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    This is a really good post. I am glad I ran into it given my current situation. I had noticed this girl around campus noticing me and we started talking. I had a day 2 with her and we texted each other back and forth. She told me that she when she first saw me she thought i was interesting and that she felt comfortable around me. I unfortunately never escalated and then tried to set up a day 3 but she had a super busy week, but she adament about seeing eachother at the bar that weekend but we didnt run into eachother. I then i saw her at my work the following monday and we shot the shit for about half hour. She said that her phone got disconnected, and right away i teased her for it. Then we had reading week and then another week of school went by without any contact. I wasn't going to message her because i didnt know the situation of her phone and didnt want to come across as needy. We ran into each other yesterday and we shot the shit. She said that her phone was back online and she would message me sometime. I'm not expecting her to message me but i would like to try to get something done. I wasn't too sure on how to go about it, but after reading this post I am excited for the challenge.

  98. #98
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    Man thats great to hear! I feel like writing this post i was trying to put my own thoughts to help myself on virtual paper to help me. I had no idea it would inspire so many other people! I'm flattered. i appreciate all the feedback and glad to have experienced this environment myself (the community). Use it. I hope it influences you life positively as it has so far to me.

    I encourage all of you who have messaged me to post publicly. This safe haven is a think tank for your success. Truely. Individual specific situations are probably best referred to the LoveSystems instructors with phone conversation. Its a me world and everyone wants to know about this one specific situation/girl. Which is helpful. Cuz repeated situations are inevitable. No matter how may guys shun the "one-itis" mentality...

    But realistically, I don't have time to read these 1500 word essays about your situation. Which is hurtfull cuz I know you spent your time writing it and are engaged by it. I'm sorry I can't write back. I work 75 hours a week and have school the remaining so my free time is spent with my girlfriend/family.

    Best of luck guys!

    Chris

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    what a great and comprehensive guide.. although i have a similar problem which needs something more tailor made.. and i have no clue what to do
    there is a girl in one of my classes and i have liked her for the past 2 months.. at first she had no idea, then about a month in one of my friends told her that i had feelings for her (without my knowledge) and we just kept on being friends then about 2 weeks ago i told her that i liked her more than a friend, she didn't quite say the words LJBF but she strongly implied it, she said something to the affect that alot of guys do that to her.. here is the greatest problem she is like a friend making machine if anyone likes her she is quick to convert you to a friend and the bigger problem still is that she has never had a boyfriend, to first after telling her we hung out a couple times but the friend vibe was ever so present and now the conversations i have with her are akward.. mostly because i do not put in effort but that is because i do not know how to proceed to change her mind.. any suggestions?
    thanks to everyone in advance!

  100. #100
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    Thank you so much, this is working like a charm.

    Do you think that if i go through the kino steps like in 4 days it is fine?

    It's working like a charm so far.

    love you <3

    P.D:
    I'm not gay xD

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