Q&A Session: Rokker Was Here(Finished)

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    Q&A Session: Rokker Was Here(Finished)

    Rokker, one of Europe's new TMM master instructors, has kindly agreed to put himself at your disposal to answer your sticking points questions about PU and The Mystery Method. Those who were around earlier would remember Sinn's Q&A sessions which can be found here and there

    An intro by Rokker can be found here. You can read his classical writings here.

    This thread will be open for a limited time only(depending on how busy Rokker is). So, make use of this unique opportunity to pick Rokker's brains. (Not you, Hannibal Lecter).

    So, start the Questions.



    miaddict
    (If you've never failed, you've never lived.)





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    You're gaming a girl and from the middle of no where another girl comes and drags her away, you didn't have the opportunity to befriend the obstacle because she came out of nowhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skld View Post
    You're gaming a girl and from the middle of no where another girl comes and drags her away, you didn't have the opportunity to befriend the obstacle because she came out of nowhere.
    Well, this assumes that you opened her when her friends were away. So you could more or less expect a interrupt sooner or later in the set. Just like if you isolate too quickly (which however is not a particular bad strategy per se, but you have to know how to handle interrupts) you know the interrupt will come, so why not prepare for it? So when the girl comes in run standard interruption game.

    If your mind goes blank, just stop the obstacle and open her with e.g. a opinion opener and then game the set as a 2 set.

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    What was the toughest sticking point for you to overcome and why?

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    On day 2, I feel like I have to kind of start at A2 and move back into comfort... Does this mean I haven't built enough comfort in the first place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jremi View Post
    What was the toughest sticking point for you to overcome and why?
    Probably not giving a damn what anyone thinks of me. Especially in the beginning, but when I started to make a concious effort not to care and when my successes started to rack up, it was easier. But it definitely took time to ingrain into my brain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AFChimp View Post
    On day 2, I feel like I have to kind of start at A2 and move back into comfort... Does this mean I haven't built enough comfort in the first place?
    Not necessarily. You almost always start in attraction when you haven't seen her for awhile (even just a day or two) because you want to gauge how attracted she is right there and then AND you want to show her why she was attracted to you in the first place. However, as soon as you know where you're at, make sure you push for the other phases (qualification, comfort and on a date definitely seduction) and don't be afraid to escalate. Being able to shamelessly escalate is a great skill to have, and it's worth fucking up some dates to learn how to do that.

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    I got a whole list for ya baby

    Appreciate the replys in advance, friend

    1) What was your most brutal blowout?

    2) What is your strategy pertaining to AMOGs commenting on the way you dress?

    3) What are the steps you personally take when creating new DHV stories?

    4) What is your favorite outfit?

    5) How many women would you guesstamate you have approached in your life? Per month? Per week?

    Thanks for your time Rokker

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    WHat should one do In order to build a social circle?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hollywoodIA View Post
    1) What was your most brutal blowout?
    I honestly don't know. I don't tend to focus on the blow-out itself, more what I did wrong in approaching so I don't have any specific blow-out lingering in mind. However, I think the most brutal blow-outs is where they just give you that look y'know and turn their back on you... because there is really nothing you can do compared to when they give you shit (and you can turn it around by being unreactive)

    But my point is, why care about how they blew you out? That sort of thinking is counter-productive, even if you only ask for entertainment value.

    Quote Originally Posted by hollywoodIA View Post
    2) What is your strategy pertaining to AMOGs commenting on the way you dress?
    Being unreactive. I never engage in "epic AMOG battles". Why should I? If they give you shit, just say "cool man" in a slightly dismissive tone, give them a light tap on the shoulder and continue gaming the girl. The one being reactive in any social situation is always the person with the least value. By being unreactive I'll never be in that position.

    Quote Originally Posted by hollywoodIA View Post
    3) What are the steps you personally take when creating new DHV stories?
    First I make sure that I really want to tell that story in the first place. Is it a cool story without the DHVs? Then I try to spike it with as much emotional detail as I can possibly fit in... the way to create good stories is not the DHV spikes themselves, but the emotions you can create from telling it. So when I have the emotions down in the story, I figure out the "logistics" of the story, what's my hook? What's the middle? How do I want it to end (punchline, moral etc)? I highly recommend getting Sinn & Future's Interview Series disc on Storytelling and Humor.

    Quote Originally Posted by hollywoodIA View Post
    4) What is your favorite outfit?
    I don't have one specific outfit that I like more than others, but my general style is that I mix street with style and rock. E.g. cool t-shirt with a tie and a jacket and jeans. Or a shirt with torn jeans. Above that I have 2-3 necklaces and leather wristbands.

    Quote Originally Posted by hollywoodIA View Post
    5) How many women would you guesstamate you have approached in your life? Per month? Per week?
    Oh, tough one. Thousands Per week I would guess I do about 20-30 sets, so that would be roughly 100 per month. Some nights when I focus on "social proof game" I approach EVERYONE in the venue, but only for a very quick chat so the numbers skyrocket when I do that. To be honest, the number of sets you've approached is not the indicator of how good you are or will become, it's what you learn from every interaction that is important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by insideasd View Post
    WHat should one do In order to build a social circle?
    Start going out with the purpose of making friends. Be the one that THROWS THE PARTIES, not only attend them. You want to be the organizer, the go-to guy. And it doesn't even have to be parties, it can be anything - a local pub quiz, a weekly poker game, weekly sport activity etc. That's the best way to build a new social circle.

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    Wow! Cool!
    Pleasure to meet you Rokker
    I'm going to get my Journal, to write out my sticking point...
    [[back in 5 minutes]]
    Ok, so this was written by me on on Sunday, June 10th, 2007.
    I've improved a lot on this aspect since then, but here it is as I think your input will help a lot:::
    I am attached to keeping high sexual tension with multiple HBs in a venue. This is bad because you're not closing.
    I realized, I got a certain 'high' from just having various girls horny in the place.
    So, fucking 4am would roll around, and I'm still partying and stuff... yet for a good night of fucking, I think we all know that 4am doesn't provide much of a 'night' left.
    Since June, I've improved greatly... but I still find my self on many occassions doing just that... not closing.

    For my solution, I wrote on the side:::
    Regiment, BE A SHOW!
    As in to get it into my brain: Fuck it if the other HBs see they're not going to hook-up with you... fuck it! Hook up with one of them! Or two!

    Thanks for taking the time to read and reply to this man... much, much appreciated.

    Have a great day!

    -Regiment
    .

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    Regiment, I would suggest that you seed a bounce or a timebridge while you are gaming the girls, so when 4am rolls around you have a plan of action. Even try to bounce them to a nearby place for food works well. You are right tho, getting them excited and drawn to you and not closing is a major sticking point. And don't be afraid to fuck it up with a couple of girls with them seeing you close another girl - by all means be smooth about it if you can - but not closing because of that reason is a big no-no.

    But I really suggest that you start seeding closing timebridges / bounces earlier, that will make life easier for you.

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    Thank you Sir!
    Much appreciated.

    I hadn't even thought about seeding a bounce/timebridge.
    Wow. My brain's gears are turning... gonna think about that a lot during today.

    And, you're totally right::: not closing because of other girls is flat out wrong
    I'll be working on that until I eliminate it satisfactorily.

    Much appreciated Rokker.
    Thanks for your time helping us here, really grateful.

    All the Best,

    -Regiment
    .

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    rokker im currently practicing my direct daygame opener;
    i walk up to chicks and tell them how beautiful they are and that i just had to come over and talk to them;

    but what do i say after that?
    how should i act?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DjSuperman717 View Post
    rokker im currently practicing my direct daygame opener;
    i walk up to chicks and tell them how beautiful they are and that i just had to come over and talk to them;

    but what do i say after that?
    how should i act?
    The difference between a good direct opener and a not so good one is that immediately after you expressed interest you switch to a qualification frame. In other words a good direct opener would be:
    "I think you are absolutely stunning, and I had to come up and say hi to you... I'm Rokker. And you are? [They tell you their name] And why are you special?"

    So you need to qualify her right off the bat when you go direct. When we go direct we want to subcommunicate that she definitely caught our attention, but we are not sure she meets our standards yet... so we are trying to find that out.

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    My second Q would be what are your personal views on Context and calibration.
    How and when does one get a hold of it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by insideasd View Post
    My second Q would be what are your personal views on Context and calibration.
    How and when does one get a hold of it?
    Being well calibrated is always an on-going process and you never fully master it, because this is not science, it's art. But mostly calibration comes from being out in the field and doing a conscious effort to improve your calibration by playing around with IOI's and IOD's and push/pull, eg. deliver your teases with a slight IOI at the end to see if they hit better, or release your IOI's with different releases.

    It took me about 8 months before I thought I was well-calibrated in almost any situation, but that doesn't mean that I've stopped thinking about it and try to improve it even more.

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    I don't know if you've had this problem. In a town where it is far from target rich is there any way to still improve your game?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado View Post
    I don't know if you've had this problem. In a town where it is far from target rich is there any way to still improve your game?
    Yes, game girls you are not interested in to build your skill set. You don't have to sleep with them, but having girls interested in you and wants to have sex with you is not really a problem is it? Build your skill so when the target do come along, you know exactly what to do.

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    I live in a city which has a huge blend of different cultures, which makes the game a bit more challenging. For instance, it's a pretty well known fact that you can't really neg a polish girl when she's new to the american culture, because she won't understand the sarcasm. How do you adjust your mentality when you are working on an american versus a russian, or perhaps an asian versus an african american?

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    I live in a city which has a huge blend of different cultures, which makes the game a bit more challenging. For instance, it's a pretty well known fact that you can't really neg a polish girl when she's new to the american culture, because she won't understand the sarcasm. How do you adjust your mentality when you are working on an american versus a russian, or perhaps an asian versus an african american?
    I have the same problem but most of the girls I game (16 and up, especially the younger ones) are not foreign but just... Well... Stupid, with lack of a better word. I feel I can't run game on them because they are... Well... Stupid =-\. Something would pop up in my mind and I'd surpress it because I know she wouldn't understand. After a few of these I decide to make the move and say if something pops up in my mind. I say it and they go "what?" or they react completely wrong. Example:

    Me: "Yeh I would be the perfect boyfriend, I'd call you 30 times a day and ask you every 5 mins if you are ok"
    She: "But that's just annoying"

    There is nothing wrong with my frame or body language, they simply don't get it so I usually try to whore in as much push/pull as is humanly possible which works but has a lower success rate than my normal game...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enformation View Post
    I live in a city which has a huge blend of different cultures, which makes the game a bit more challenging. For instance, it's a pretty well known fact that you can't really neg a polish girl when she's new to the american culture, because she won't understand the sarcasm. How do you adjust your mentality when you are working on an american versus a russian, or perhaps an asian versus an african american?
    I don't adjust my initial game whatsoever. Last time I was in London I pulled 1 canadian girl, 1 french girl, 1 spanish girl and 1 girl from Monte Negro in 5 days time going in with the same mentality: They'll love me and eventually end up in my bed. All girls respond equally to social value, pre-selection and so forth.

    That being said, I agree that there are some differences in how you play your mid-game, but that's generally the case with every girl. So the next time you are in a set with a polish girl and she doesn't respond well to negs, well then don't use negs... and calibrate that missed neg and build attraction some other way. Do you see where I'm going here? I don't think you should have a separate "asian game" and a different "american girls game", it should all be calibrated in set.

  24. 08-15-2007, 01:46 PM

    Reason
    Respect Rokker's privacy

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    Rokker, tips on storytelling while in set?

    And how long did it take you to incorporate full on multipal threading into your sets

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ment4ll View Post
    Rokker, tips on storytelling while in set?

    And how long did it take you to incorporate full on multipal threading into your sets
    On storytelling: Make sure you're telling stories that you genuinly want to tell and that you don't tell them just because of the embedded DHVs. Entusiasm is contagious. As I said in another reply it's important that the story takes her on an emotional journey. As guys we tend to put alot of factual details in our stories but it's more important to have emotional details and really live the story when you tell it. I really like Sinn and Futures CD from the interview series on the subject.

    On multiple threading: I've always tried to incorporate that, so I've never felt from one moment to another that "oh right now I've got full MT going on", it's been a gradual progression where you introduce better and better threads and cut your own and others threads better. The way to practice it is to start cutting your own threads (eg the opener) start another thread, cut that one and go back to the opener, start a third thread and so forth. Don't be afraid to experiment with that.

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    Do you have any memorable lays? (models, celebrities, porn stars, other)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikado View Post
    Do you have any memorable lays? (models, celebrities, porn stars, other)
    I've laid a handful of models but no celeb or porn star. That's definitely the next step...

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    Day game v. Night game do you run the same routine stack or do you calibrate your DHV's/routines based on the environment/target? Basically, do you enter coffee shop set with a different routine stack then a club set? Although I'm sure you do I'm just trying to elaborate for myself and be sure.

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    How do/did you handle inner game issues?

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    What's happening man?

    First I guess in my experience and I wanted to know if it's yours, would you say a big part of being good is having balls, persistence, a great personality and detachment from the outcome?

    And second do you find in your own experience that a big part of this game no matter who's method you follow is won or loss in the qualification and/or compliance stage?

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    Thanks for answering my question. I have another one for you, and it's about a sticking point that I have.

    Lot of times, I get attraction and have them chasing me, and maybe I over do it or something, but, even though they touch me, follow me around, re initiate convo... when I throw out hoops and do compliance test, they fight it. And it's hard to get qualifying and building comfort, and I tend to get stuck in attraction phase for too long. So I IOD her for not complying and then later test her again they refuse again.. So this continues, while they are following me around the club or bar. And when I show IOI to calibrate, they get colder. What can I do to turn these types of interactions around? And what am I doing wrong in the first place to make them so testy even though they're apparently interested?
    Last edited by AFChimp; 08-16-2007 at 05:53 PM.

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    I'd like to ask Rokker what was the best piece of advice he ever got?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ment4ll View Post
    Day game v. Night game do you run the same routine stack or do you calibrate your DHV's/routines based on the environment/target? Basically, do you enter coffee shop set with a different routine stack then a club set? Although I'm sure you do I'm just trying to elaborate for myself and be sure.
    Yes I do have different stacks. In Day game I'm interested in finding out the logistics of the set pretty early in the interaction (so I know if I can instadate her or if I should go for the #-close) which is not a big concern in night game. I don't do that many routines in day game either, I rely (even) more on banter and vibing than night game where I have stories and threads I want to go down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Szenya View Post
    How do/did you handle inner game issues?
    Sorry man, too broad of a question. Could you narrow it down a bit? Did you have any specific issue in mind?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seldomseen View Post
    First I guess in my experience and I wanted to know if it's yours, would you say a big part of being good is having balls, persistence, a great personality and detachment from the outcome?
    Absolutely, add "being self-correcting and able to analyze and be honest with yourself" and you are spot on.

    Quote Originally Posted by seldomseen View Post
    And second do you find in your own experience that a big part of this game no matter who's method you follow is won or loss in the qualification and/or compliance stage?
    I would say that you loose even more sets if you are afraid to escalate. Approach anxiety is a form of escalation, and many guys don't even get over that hurdle. After that it's escalating beyond attraction and to "be a closer". But you are right, the qualification stage is one of the most underrated stages in the model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AFChimp View Post
    Lot of times, I get attraction and have them chasing me, and maybe I over do it or something, but, even though they touch me, follow me around, re initiate convo... when I throw out hoops and do compliance test, they fight it. And it's hard to get qualifying and building comfort, and I tend to get stuck in attraction phase for too long. So I IOD her for not complying and then later test her again they refuse again.. So this continues, while they are following me around the club or bar. And when I show IOI to calibrate, they get colder. What can I do to turn these types of interactions around? And what am I doing wrong in the first place to make them so testy even though they're apparently interested?
    Sounds to me that something's off in your delivery of the hoops. Maybe your not playful enough, and they come across really weird. Maybe you are too playful and they come off clownish. I would try to go to both extremes (really playful vs sincere) and see what works best for you (different hoops need to delivered slightly different, but in general don't be too serious - if you are you will notice a negative difference in the vibe afterwards)

    Also, start with small hoops first (eg "are you adventurous?") and work your way upwards to the bigger hoops ("beauty is common...").

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    Hi,

    a question about your/TMMīs bootcamps. i hope you can answer that here or via pm...i donīt really know where to ask questions like that.
    are routines a huge part of the bootcamp? i mean, do you spend half a day or so on teaching students routines?
    i ask because using routines is a no-no for me personally. i donīt have time to memorize and practise them and my natural conversation skills are usually...excellent. sooo, how much would i benefit from a bootcamp, where a lot of students are below my level?

    and since iīm from europe: whatīs your price for a 1 on 1?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metroid View Post
    I'd like to ask Rokker what was the best piece of advice he ever got?
    On my first bootcamp Sinn said something along the lines of "You will be forgiven for alot of your mistakes if you just keep talking. Be talkative!" which is very true. People who are good at pick-up are all very good at talking... a lot.

    I also like what Sheriff said to me on the same bootcamp on having standards and knowing what you want:
    "If you aim at nothing, you are going to hit nothing".

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonCapone View Post
    Hi,

    a question about your/TMMīs bootcamps. i hope you can answer that here or via pm...i donīt really know where to ask questions like that.
    are routines a huge part of the bootcamp? i mean, do you spend half a day or so on teaching students routines?
    i ask because using routines is a no-no for me personally. i donīt have time to memorize and practise them and my natural conversation skills are usually...excellent. sooo, how much would i benefit from a bootcamp, where a lot of students are below my level?

    and since iīm from europe: whatīs your price for a 1 on 1?
    Nope, routines are NOT a big part of bootcamp. We teach the underlying principles and explain why routines work and what we want to accomplish with them, but we don't spend alot of time going through routine after routine.

    Bootcamps are not only for beginners. In field we adjust to what YOU need to practice on (that's why we have a good instructor - student ratio so we can make sure that everyone get the attention they need). Sure, the seminar is the same for all, but rest assured that you will never look at the theory the same way after you've taken a bootcamp - it's a major eye-opener having it explained instead of reading up on it yourself.

    If you are interested in a 1 on 1 or want to know what it would cost to have me come to you, email jeremy at
    Jeremy@theattractionforums.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokker View Post
    Sounds to me that something's off in your delivery of the hoops. Maybe your not playful enough, and they come across really weird. Maybe you are too playful and they come off clownish. I would try to go to both extremes (really playful vs sincere) and see what works best for you (different hoops need to delivered slightly different, but in general don't be too serious - if you are you will notice a negative difference in the vibe afterwards)

    Also, start with small hoops first (eg "are you adventurous?") and work your way upwards to the bigger hoops ("beauty is common...").
    Thanks. I did 4 sets today with a different mentality going in and it's actually so similar to what you said. Before I think I was too worried about having more value than the woman and it was just about THAT. They did chase me but it wasn't really fun or comfortable. Today I went to 2 different bars and I just forgot about all that and just relaxed, non threatening, fun, interesting vibe. While in the initial phases I was just doing that and they were interested but also showing interesting sides of themselves even without me having to worry about it and I was actually interested. And then I pushed further to get more kino going with hugs and kissing... First 2 sets were uncomfortable with kiss, but I wasn't worried about it, I just went back into fun vibe and talked about comfort topics and then got their numbers. The last 2 sets I tried going in for the kiss but actually stop, and then go back to fun vibe, and then go for the kiss, then stop and go back to fun vibe, repeat without actually kissing... I guess kind of like a tease... Then when I went for the kiss they were receptive to it, they were comfortable. I just did lips only kisses and then went back to teasing/making jokes/telling stories/building comfort, etc... I had alot of fun and it wasn't about who's in control or something. And what you just said really hit the spot!

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    thanks for your answer.

    and i have one more, pickup-related question:

    i'm working a lot on my frame at the moment and it's pretty strong already. do you have any tips or exercises to strenghten it even more?

    i also would appreciate tips on frame control (i know that is a subject in itself but maybe you have a nice piece of advice you'd like to share).

    thank you

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    I noticed if a HB is alone, they usually have a crutch, ie. cell phone, book, ect. how do you work around that for an open?

    And what kind of work/exercises can I do with people who haven't overcome their initial AA?

    If I eventually want to get up to TMM instructor level to become one, what is required?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonCapone View Post
    thanks for your answer.

    and i have one more, pickup-related question:

    i'm working a lot on my frame at the moment and it's pretty strong already. do you have any tips or exercises to strenghten it even more?

    i also would appreciate tips on frame control (i know that is a subject in itself but maybe you have a nice piece of advice you'd like to share).

    thank you
    You know, thinking TOO much about it can make you really weird. It's good to always ask yourself "Are they controlling the interaction now, or am I in the lead?" but to ALWAYS try to dominate the frame just makes you look insecure. It's also one way to impose the frame of the interaction in a good way (without pissing people off but showing them you are a "tribal leader") and a bad way (by forcing it and trying to be super-dominant). So the next step in frame control is to have the people in the interaction to want you to control the frame because you are always the natural leader, the one that people look up to.

    Good ways to practice frame control is to cut threads a lot and ignore questions and keep plowing. If the vibe of the interaction changes, then you've done something wrong but if it doesn't well then you are now in control of the interaction, your frame is stronger and they know it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ment4ll View Post
    I noticed if a HB is alone, they usually have a crutch, ie. cell phone, book, ect. how do you work around that for an open?
    You could use the crutch as your opener if you want, but I don't see it as a problem. So if she's reading a book or doing something with her cell, give her a light tap on the shoulder so she looks up and then open. It's really not harder than that. If they are on the phone it can be trickier, but stop her and while she is stunned say "tell her you'll call her back" with a smile and then go direct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ment4ll View Post
    And what kind of work/exercises can I do with people who haven't overcome their initial AA?
    A great excerise and a good state builder is to just say "Hi, how's it going" to EVERY person you walk by on your way to the club or wherever you are going. If they look terribly creeped out by that you know that your delivery is off... of course, not everyone will smile back and be happy, but you can get a pretty good feeling how good your delivery is on how well they respond.

    Other than that you can do what we do on bootcamps... push them into sets. Tell them how it's always a pain period in the beginning, but the true champs fight it out and come out on top. Write down what you want to achieve with pick-up and everytime you feel AA ask yourself "Does this action [opening the set] take me closer or further away from my goals?".

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    My worst sticking point, like you mentioned before, is getting out of the belief that what people think of me matters.

    Would you elaborate a little more about what helped you change, to not giving a shit what people think, and what made you realize you can just let it all go

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    Rokker,
    I've got one for you.
    I was out last night and I noticed 2sets, 3sets or mixed sets about to leave the bar when I and my wings were going in. (We were also bouncing from one bar/club to the next). I would meet them going down the stairs, on the way out, coming out of lounge etc...

    Opinion openers only work to get 'em for less than 1 minute... but it seemed that they've made up their minds to leave the room before i opened them.


    Have you come across this situation and have any tips on how I can better handle them and make them stay in the venue? Surely, they were only leaving because the place stunk BEFORE we came in.

    On one set, I've verbally tried to convince them to hang out with us( but the 'leader' of the set just dragged the rest away). bad move.

    miaddict
    (If you've never failed, you've never lived.)





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    hi rokker, how do we actually pick up SALES PROMOTER?
    i mean they are working in the shop and how should i open them and number closed them?
    do i need to run any routines..? if yes what routines are compatible?

    thanks for help! newbie here..

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    Hey Rokker, I have the same sticking point you had, not caring what others think. See I would probably be very good at picking up, but I'm afraid that if I fail, this image that I have of me being good with girls would shatter.

    For example, every time some guy (even if I dont know him much) asks me "So dude, where are your bitches/girls/women?" I allways say something to indicate I have alot of girls, even if I don't.

    But if I don't have to think of hitting on girls or making moves, I'm really confident and smooth, which means many girls would like me, but I cant have any of them. So can you please tell me in more detail how you handled your problem? Thanks in advance

    /mista Bo-Jay

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    QUESTION

    in high energy club type places, i use kinda outlandish routines at times, which im guessing are meant for creating attraction...PVC devil, sexual predators (ive yet to do this 100% correctly), best friends test, and some random c/f stuff. IM finding it hard to properly DHV and tell stories in high energy clubs, and these routines seem to fit in the mood better.
    ARE THESE ROUTINES ABLE TO CREATE ATTRACTION? or is it just ball busting and random fun and nothing more

    Do these kind of things, coupled with push pull type stuff, create enough attraction? should i afterwards just cut it out and go into qualification and compliment the girl for having such a fun loving side etc?

    would this structure: open with something random, PVC Devil routine, best friends etc, then qualification be sufficient?
    should i just go into normal rapport after the routines and cut down on the ball busting and routine stuff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trock View Post
    My worst sticking point, like you mentioned before, is getting out of the belief that what people think of me matters.

    Would you elaborate a little more about what helped you change, to not giving a shit what people think, and what made you realize you can just let it all go
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBojangles
    Hey Rokker, I have the same sticking point you had, not caring what others think. See I would probably be very good at picking up, but I'm afraid that if I fail, this image that I have of me being good with girls would shatter.

    For example, every time some guy (even if I dont know him much) asks me "So dude, where are your bitches/girls/women?" I allways say something to indicate I have alot of girls, even if I don't.

    But if I don't have to think of hitting on girls or making moves, I'm really confident and smooth, which means many girls would like me, but I cant have any of them. So can you please tell me in more detail how you handled your problem? Thanks in advance
    I think it's a combination of having goals, frame control / inner game and having success while adapting the "I don't give a fuck" mindset.

    Having goals
    If you have goals you will (should) do anything to reach them. By having goals and trying to reach them, you will discover that caring what other people think will only set you back. It's complex and your attitude won't change over night but having set goals and trying to reach them has definitely helped my progress of not caring.

    Frame control / inner game
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBojangles
    For example, every time some guy (even if I dont know him much) asks me "So dude, where are your bitches/girls/women?" I allways say something to indicate I have alot of girls, even if I don't.
    Why do you feel the urge to qualify yourself to this guy? Who the fuck cares what he thinks of you and your women? If you would've asked the same question to Brad Pitt, do you think he would go "Uhm well... I don't know man, but Angelina Jolie is waiting for me back home! I swear man, it's true!" Well if he is a comical genius he might, but I think you get my point. You try to qualify yourself because you feel you will raise your value by doing so, and this is a inner game issue. Why do you perceive your value to be lower than some random dude in the first place?

    By learning frame control and handling interactions, that will also help you because you know you are the leader and "have nothing to prove".

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBojangles
    See I would probably be very good at picking up, but I'm afraid that if I fail, this image that I have of me being good with girls would shatter.
    Reframe it. Ask yourself
    Q: "So if I'm not as good with women as I perceive, what would happen?"
    A: "I would feel miserable about it because I'm afraid of failure and it will tear on my inner game".

    Q: "But is the current mindset you are applying working for you? Does it make you happy and get you what you want?"
    A: "No."

    Q: "So how can I improve and get what I want (and be happy)?"
    A: "Only by taking risks and finding out. If my perception of me being good with girls would shatter at least now I know that and can take action and improve myself instead of being trapped in a deadlock. If I succeed and my perception is right I get what I want - it's a win / win situation".

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayabusa View Post
    QUESTION

    in high energy club type places, i use kinda outlandish routines at times, which im guessing are meant for creating attraction...PVC devil, sexual predators (ive yet to do this 100% correctly), best friends test, and some random c/f stuff. IM finding it hard to properly DHV and tell stories in high energy clubs, and these routines seem to fit in the mood better.
    ARE THESE ROUTINES ABLE TO CREATE ATTRACTION? or is it just ball busting and random fun and nothing more
    Yes they are enough to create attraction. Remember tho that's it not the routines per se that creates the attraction - it's what YOU sub-communicate when doing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by hayabusa View Post
    Do these kind of things, coupled with push pull type stuff, create enough attraction? should i afterwards just cut it out and go into qualification and compliment the girl for having such a fun loving side etc?
    Try to qualify as soon as possible. Start off with small hoops that doesn't require much compliance (eg "Are you adventoruous", "Are you a good friend", "Can you cook") and when they jump through them start giving out bigger hoops (interlaced with more attraction stories... remember it's not a linear process but cyclical). But it's vital to throw in some qualification in the mix.

    Quote Originally Posted by hayabusa View Post
    would this structure: open with something random, PVC Devil routine, best friends etc, then qualification be sufficient?
    should i just go into normal rapport after the routines and cut down on the ball busting and routine stuff?
    Yes that structure would work. If they don't respond well to your qualification hoops you need to have more attraction so I would suggest you think of where you want the interaction to go if they IOD (don't comply to the qualification hoop) or IOI (respond well to the hoop).
    Example of such a structure could be:

    IOD: "You know I was just being polite", [new attraction story, or game eg the 5 question game] -> vibing -> a new qualification hoop

    IOI: Cold-read or make a statement of them, "I bet you guys are [accountants, lawyers, circus performers]" -> comfort -> new qualification hoop -> comfort

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    On SHB's do you give solid eye contact before you open? Doesn't this show interest? Or do you not give them attention until negs in the set?


    if thats confusing at all I'll elaborate

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    Quote Originally Posted by miaddict View Post
    Rokker,
    I've got one for you.
    I was out last night and I noticed 2sets, 3sets or mixed sets about to leave the bar when I and my wings were going in. (We were also bouncing from one bar/club to the next). I would meet them going down the stairs, on the way out, coming out of lounge etc...

    Opinion openers only work to get 'em for less than 1 minute... but it seemed that they've made up their minds to leave the room before i opened them.

    Have you come across this situation and have any tips on how I can better handle them and make them stay in the venue?
    I've encountered it a number of times. I usually stick to opinion openers in these situations, and make sure I transition into something fun (like a game or an advanced cold read). At this point if they are really leaving they will tell you "We were just about to leave..." which at the point I usually go "Oh really? That's too bad, then you won't be around for me to show you this cool thing my ex-gf showed me". If I've hooked I've just peaked their interest enough and just bought myself a couple of more minutes (or more) and I'm now trying to find out who's the leader of the pack. If I can get him or her to want to stay I'm in... of course if I haven't quite hooked they just walk off. But it's important to display the willingness to walk away and potentially lose the set.

    Quote Originally Posted by miaddict View Post
    On one set, I've verbally tried to convince them to hang out with us( but the 'leader' of the set just dragged the rest away). bad move.
    Yup, bad move. It screams neediness and doesn't convey any value. The only verbal conviction I use is lines like "Y'know you are welcome to hang around us. We are more fun than any other club anyways" and try to make them want to stay by peeking their interest instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ment4ll View Post
    On SHB's do you give solid eye contact before you open? Doesn't this show interest? Or do you not give them attention until negs in the set?
    I give them solid eye-contact if they initiated the eye contact. It might show interest, but more importantly it shows dominance and confidence. However, I don't actively search for eye contact with any girl.

    That rule "don't give your target ANY attention but negs" is a guideline, not really a rule. As long as you don't pay any extra attention to her just because she is hot you don't have to be an ignorant bastard... I'll look for opportunities to bust on her and tease, but I don't ignore her completely unless she's being cold towards me, at which point I IOD her and show active disinterest. What you are trying to display is unreactiveness to her beauty, and that's it. If you can do it by being "naturally high-value", there's really no reason to completely ignore her.

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    Two questions:

    1. whats your approach for those girls in bars or clubs that are just standing or sitting there with their frnds with a super bitchy look and no energy whats so ever. They look like they'd be dismissive right off the bat and not very responsive to anything....(You know, the ones who dont look like theyd mingle)


    2. how do you handle really hyper party chicks that are like stimulus seaking missles and bounce around from one interesting thing to another. I find it kinda hard to keep their interest for too long as almost anything can catch their attention and they're just gone...


    thanks

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    what are

    what are you focus or beliefs or frames of mind in each phase of the emotional progression model? ie. in attract phase your frame of mind or focus is She wants me...
    LIFE IS GOOD
    ENJOY THE MOMENT

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    Rokker, thanks for taking the time to answer our questions.

    This question is not strictly MM, but also takes into account Sinn's MB - When using a direct opener, and then qualifying her within the same line, my first intuitive response (after she's responded) is to go directly into the qualification stage mixed with comfort then after she has passed my screens, go into kiss close, and perhaps fools mate or number close. What advice would you have from this?

    Also, how do you deal with a direct shut down? e.g. me: "You're beautiful and caught my attention, is there anything behind that beauty/what makes you unique" - her: "no, fuck off/nothing, go away" (or some variant haha) -

    I would like to work this avenue of game a bit more and would appreciate any advice on how to advance.

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    One more that I just thought of - approaching on the dance floor - I can dance, but I don't feel comfortable talking (CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?!) or just grabbing and grinding up - especially since every slime ball creep grabs broads from behind and tries to dry hump them.

    I do notice that approaching from the front and being friendly usually works w/ younger girls (sometimes older) until mother hen comes along. Any advice?

    Cheers,
    OUAC

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    rokker, that post i made last night was at like 3am, i thought it made no sense, and my comp was lagging, i didnt even know it got posted. But now i see you answered my question in a very helpful way
    thank you!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hayabusa View Post
    1. whats your approach for those girls in bars or clubs that are just standing or sitting there with their frnds with a super bitchy look and no energy whats so ever. They look like they'd be dismissive right off the bat and not very responsive to anything....(You know, the ones who dont look like theyd mingle)
    First of all, no-one ever goes to a bar NOT to talk to or meet people. If they "just want to catch up with a friend" they would do so at home. Some girls however get annyoed by the constant stream of chodes coming up and pushing the wrong buttons. So yeah, they probably will be dismissive right off the bat as their initial thought probably is "Oh no here's another chode...". Well, break that chain of thoughts. The 2 key parts to such a set is unreactivness and being able to plow. I don't handle such a set differentely than any other except I prepare to get a series of shit-tests coming in my direction right off the bat.

    It sounds like you are afraid of a scenario when ice-queens might shut you down. So what if they do? Seems like a inner game issue. They should be happy that you are there to talk to them, because you will be the highlight of the evening!

    Quote Originally Posted by hayabusa View Post
    2. how do you handle really hyper party chicks that are like stimulus seaking missles and bounce around from one interesting thing to another. I find it kinda hard to keep their interest for too long as almost anything can catch their attention and they're just gone...
    I amp up the kino and make sure I go into qualification early. Make sure you isolate.
    Last edited by Rokker; 08-20-2007 at 11:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Im CraCcCraC View Post
    what are you focus or beliefs or frames of mind in each phase of the emotional progression model? ie. in attract phase your frame of mind or focus is She wants me...
    Opening - They'll love me
    Transitioning - Is this / Are these girl(s) playful or not? What thread do I want to start up the conversation with?
    Attraction - I'm the coolest guy you've ever met
    Qualification - Eventho I'm the coolest guy you ever met, there's something special about you... but do you pass my standards?
    Comfort - You love me and here's why...
    Seduction - I love dirty girls

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    Quote Originally Posted by OnceUponACow View Post
    This question is not strictly MM, but also takes into account Sinn's MB - When using a direct opener, and then qualifying her within the same line, my first intuitive response (after she's responded) is to go directly into the qualification stage mixed with comfort then after she has passed my screens, go into kiss close, and perhaps fools mate or number close. What advice would you have from this?
    Yup, when you go direct and she starts qualifying, assume attraction.

    Quote Originally Posted by OnceUponACow View Post
    Also, how do you deal with a direct shut down? e.g. me: "You're beautiful and caught my attention, is there anything behind that beauty/what makes you unique" - her: "no, fuck off/nothing, go away" (or some variant haha) -
    Well the beauty of direct is that you put all your cards on the table, and if she would respond like that, well then you are in trouble. But the key is to be unreactive. I usually throw in a piece like this if I get a cold reaction:
    "You know what I really like about [XXX, the city or district you are in] girls is that almost all of you guys are friendly. I'm from [wherever] and people there are a bit shy and timid and don't really connect well with strangers. That's a shame." From here I either introduce an attraction gambit or just vibe or riff off whatever response I get from that piece.

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    Rokker, my question is: what is your response to the "I have a boyfriend line." This seems to be a common question on the board, however I'd like to hear your personal perspective on this.

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    Tips on building a high value social circle?

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    Quote Originally Posted by unrated View Post
    Rokker, my question is: what is your response to the "I have a boyfriend line." This seems to be a common question on the board, however I'd like to hear your personal perspective on this.
    And would you game differently if you found out later on that she legitimately has a boyfriend?

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    This girl she says , I'm not going to talk to you , you have to tell me ........ blah blah.
    (Though i did end up teling her . AFC of me)

    Whats a good come back for this?

    .................................................. .
    Plus please critque my FR: http://wwv.theattractionforums.com/f...ad.php?t=45631



    Thanks....

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    OK here is it narrowed: I am getting a bit too attached to girls that meet my standards. What to do about it? It scews up my inner game lowers my energy mood etc...
    Btw how do you handle mood shifting? I am a moody person, having a lot of trouble with it. One day everything seems fine, other day the most beautiful things can't make me happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unrated View Post
    Rokker, my question is: what is your response to the "I have a boyfriend line." This seems to be a common question on the board, however I'd like to hear your personal perspective on this.
    Depends on the context of her saying it. If she says it in attraction or because I've escalated too quickly I say something c/f like: "Don't flatter yourself little girl, I'm into brunettes" or remain unreactive, ignore it and plow.

    If it's late in the interaction and she says it because she doesn't want to feel like a slut (and if she drops the line and we still end up in bed it's not her fault in her mind) I usually say "We'll be discreet" (credit Sinn).

    Quote Originally Posted by AFChimp
    And would you game differently if you found out later on that she legitimately has a boyfriend?
    No. May the best man (me) win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nicenomore View Post
    This girl she says , I'm not going to talk to you , you have to tell me ........ blah blah.
    (Though i did end up teling her . AFC of me)

    Whats a good come back for this?
    So from what I understand she gives you a hoop: "I'm not going to talk to you unless you talk to me". So, standard hoop theory, make her jump through one of yours. Make her spin around, hold your drink, tell her to do something... any hoop really. From there on just ignore what she said and change thread if the thread you are going down ain't leading you anywhere. Take control of the interaction and always be the one leading!

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    hey rokker, first and formost id like to thank you for taking time to answer these questions but secondly i have to bug you on a question of my own.
    if you were to break down to formatt of picking up girls into steps what would go where....
    like i obviously understand this much
    1. open
    2. talk cockyfunny/flirty/develop social value ect
    3. close
    but i was wondering if you could quickly give me an example of a situation
    i.e. picking up a girl in a mall or a club and the steps and what you do in each of these steps. im fairly new to the game and would appreciate some guidance in regards to structure/a formatt and an example of it all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Szenya View Post
    I am getting a bit too attached to girls that meet my standards. What to do about it? It scews up my inner game lowers my energy mood etc...
    Yeah because you finally feel they are worth something to you... it's all a inner game problem and suddenly you feel their value to be really high because they passed all your screens, but hey you two should be equal in value. So what you need to do is not putting them on a pedistal just because they meet your standards... easier said than done I know, but the more you surround yourself with people that do meet your standards the easier it will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Szenya View Post
    Btw how do you handle mood shifting? I am a moody person, having a lot of trouble with it. One day everything seems fine, other day the most beautiful things can't make me happy.
    I think we all have those days, just make sure that the difference between a good day and a bad day isn't miles apart. What really helped me is to always look at the positive in every situation. It's not always easy, but in the long run it definitely helps and makes your mind focus on positive things instead of negative by autopilot after awhile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokker View Post
    Depends on the context of her saying it. If she says it in attraction or because I've escalated too quickly I say something c/f like: "Don't flatter yourself little girl, I'm into brunettes" or remain unreactive, ignore it and plow.
    Gotcha.

    What about in the context of a direct opener, like, "I think you are beautiful..."

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    Since I'm in a wheelchair do I need to do extra framing to let girls know its ok to be sexual? If so, how?

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    I could see her boyfriend mouthing Ill kick your a$$!

    So I'm new to all this and the set is a couple of young college promo girls for Jack Daniels. I approached trying to haggle my way into a free shirt and decide which one if either was to be my target. In opening I began to neg what I thought was my target when a third very hot brunette joined and was very interested in the magic trick I was just starting. I tried my best not to notice her....Long story short I screwed up the trick and managed to blame her negative energy and walked away to another set that my pivot was already befriending and she followed me. We spoke some more at a table off to the side about this negativity and how to correct it. By this time with her chasing me down and a few minutes of conversation I had gotten several ioi's. Then out of no where she mentioned her boyfriend was probably upset I tried to refocus her and when I couldn't, tried convincing her he was the source of the negativity...Thats when I saw him over her shoulder on the other side of the bar and could tell it was my butt he was talking about kicking with his three buddies....Anyhow I made the mistake of trying to get him over and make him look foolish by giving a fake therapy session with the hopes of eventually re-isolating the girl but instead I lost her intrest altogether. As she whent to appease the retard, as if I was actually threatend by him, trying to get him to come over saying I was just showing her some magic tricks.....What the hell should I have done? Should I have ignored him altogether? Directly confronted him in a non violent way? Beat the living crap out of him? Had my friend, the bars manager, have him tossed? Please help?

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    I am terrible at game after getting contact info. I met a girl at a Barnes and Noble and have made contact with her already. We exchanged a few laughs online and I've been negging her and doing a few DHV spikes. I think I formed attraction to a certain extent. I want to get her to come hang out with me, even if her friend tags along to. Now I have no idea how to go about this, it's been a day since last contact. What can you suggest. (P.S. the type of girl she is... 18yo, she models, and she likes to party and have fun. If that helps?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by unrated View Post
    Gotcha.

    What about in the context of a direct opener, like, "I think you are beautiful..."
    Ignore it and keep talking. I also amp up the qualification if I get this from a direct opener (even more than otherwise).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ment4ll View Post
    Since I'm in a wheelchair do I need to do extra framing to let girls know its ok to be sexual? If so, how?
    Yes, I think it's important for you to do that. I would absolutely talk about past experiences with ex-gfs and how you guys were notorious for your high sex drive.

    Also, make sure that you use a lot of kino on the girls so they know you are a touchy feely guy. If you don't establish kino right off the bat I think it'll be even harder for you to establish it later, and escalating it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RemyMartin View Post
    So I'm new to all this and the set is a couple of young college promo girls for Jack Daniels. I approached trying to haggle my way into a free shirt and decide which one if either was to be my target. In opening I began to neg what I thought was my target when a third very hot brunette joined and was very interested in the magic trick I was just starting. I tried my best not to notice her....Long story short I screwed up the trick and managed to blame her negative energy and walked away to another set that my pivot was already befriending and she followed me. We spoke some more at a table off to the side about this negativity and how to correct it. By this time with her chasing me down and a few minutes of conversation I had gotten several ioi's. Then out of no where she mentioned her boyfriend was probably upset I tried to refocus her and when I couldn't, tried convincing her he was the source of the negativity...Thats when I saw him over her shoulder on the other side of the bar and could tell it was my butt he was talking about kicking with his three buddies....Anyhow I made the mistake of trying to get him over and make him look foolish by giving a fake therapy session with the hopes of eventually re-isolating the girl but instead I lost her intrest altogether. As she whent to appease the retard, as if I was actually threatend by him, trying to get him to come over saying I was just showing her some magic tricks.....What the hell should I have done? Should I have ignored him altogether? Directly confronted him in a non violent way? Beat the living crap out of him? Had my friend, the bars manager, have him tossed? Please help?
    I would have moved the girl out of sight from her boyfriend. If he finds you later on, I would befriend him. You don't want to tool him, because if he feels that he gets tooled he will just move her girlfriend away from you (and she willl lose interest in you because you show a lack of social intution). Actually, I never try to tool guys. There's no reason if you feel that you are the guy with the highest value...

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    Hey Rokker have you ever met a student and from first experience you just felt in your head that there was no help for that guy? As anyone every surprised you, someone you felt was hopeless only to turn into somewhat of a stud?

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    rokker;
    you mentioned vibing and banter;
    i can vibe;
    but i have that badboy boxer image (yes i have posted my pic and have asked the community to judge me); and i think banter would just scare them and its just not my style;
    what would you suggest instead of banter?
    Last edited by DjSuperman717; 08-26-2007 at 01:50 PM.

  82. 08-26-2007, 01:54 PM

    Reason
    irrelevant to the topic

  83. 08-26-2007, 03:58 PM

    Reason
    no flaming

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    On behalf of the forum team and the forum members present at that time, I would like to thank Rokker for the free gift of his time to address the questions in this thread.

    For those who missed out on this opportunity, fret not. There would more similar events in the future. Stay tuned.

    This thread is closed for now.

    miaddict
    (If you've never failed, you've never lived.)





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