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ware_ru
03-23-2006, 03:37 PM
kind of.
So A2 is F2M attraction and DHVs. Negs, stories. Fine, I get those. My question is this:
C and U smiles, Trust test, Fuck Marry Kill, The Lying game, and basically any other routine that involves working a single person. When you're still in the set and you're working a single person I see one of two problems coming out: 1) you're working ONLY an obstacle, and thus paying TOO much attention to the obstacle and the group thinks she's the one you want and pushes toward that; or 2) you're working the target and showing too much interest before establishing F2M attraction.
So what do you do?

Malibu
03-23-2006, 03:46 PM
kind of.
So A2 is F2M attraction and DHVs. Negs, stories. Fine, I get those. My question is this:
C and U smiles, Trust test, Fuck Marry Kill, The Lying game, and basically any other routine that involves working a single person. When you're still in the set and you're working a single person I see one of two problems coming out: 1) you're working ONLY an obstacle, and thus paying TOO much attention to the obstacle and the group thinks she's the one you want and pushes toward that; or 2) you're working the target and showing too much interest before establishing F2M attraction.
So what do you do?
Dude...WTF...its pretty obvious that if it is a single set...she is your target...no obstacles...just run your game...beware of your body language though...you still must show active disinterest and your b/l can betray you if not done correctly.
:cool:
Malibu
P.S...fuck marry Kill is C1 material...used as "conspiracy" theory in the comfort stage.

ware_ru
03-23-2006, 03:52 PM
haha no, I mean if it is a group set but you're trynig to work material that involves only one girl at a time.
and thanks about fuck marry kill, but
what about trust test, lying test, C and U, and other A2's that involve specification? Or are these not A2?

jphan
03-23-2006, 03:56 PM
you need to be specific, are you even sure you're in A2, how many are in the set, what have you done so far?

Malibu
03-23-2006, 04:03 PM
haha no, I mean if it is a group set but you're trynig to work material that involves only one girl at a time.
What material are you talking about...in my opinion any routine can be applied to group sets.


what about trust test, lying test, C and U, and other A2's that involve specification? Or are these not A2?
They are all a2...
:cool:
Malibu

ware_ru
03-23-2006, 04:26 PM
Maybe I'm not being clear here. Let me describe the theoretical situation:
You're at the mall and you see a group of 3+ girls/guys. One target. You open. You sit down with them. Throw some negs, etc. Now let's say I haven't built enough value to pass yet to A3. So in order to DHV, I want to trust test.
If I say to the obstacle "give me your hands" and run it on her, I am getting kino and showing interest in the wrong girl. If I say to the target "give me your hands" and run it on her, I am giving her IOIs (kino, singling her out, turning toward her) before she deserves them, since I'm still in A2 and am not supposed to be IOI-ing yet.
The way I'm looking at these routines that have a single object is that they're fundamentally flawed because you have to give too much attention to any one piont. But obviously these things work, so how does one explain it?
Is it just a calibration issue, where you must learn how to run the routines and make the person you're using seem like you're just using them as an object for the demonstration?

jphan
03-23-2006, 04:37 PM
you should try doing the best friends test instead, I don't do kino until about 20-30 minutes in, if you do it too fast you seem all touchy feely and you get labelled a "creep" a friend of mine who is a natural, he's really good at opening but I found out from some girls I met through him, that they think he's creepy cause he's all about the hugging and stuff. Anyways, getting side tracked. The idea behind negging and ignoring the target is so that she is attracted to you and wants to gain your attention, not to shun her permenantly. If you neg her and ignore her for too long, she will permenantly lose interest. As soon as you've made your point to the group that you aren't a potential suitor or that you have no real "physical" interest with her, is when you can isolate her. "Hey, do you guys mind if I talk to your creepy friend over here? i've been kind of ignoring her. We'll just be over here you can come join us in a bit or we'll rejoin you." It's an overcomplication issue as well as a oversight issue, I would say. When you run routines and do DHV it's for 3 purposes.
1. You want to show the group and the taget indirectly that you're different from every other guy who approaches them.
2. you're uninterested in her looks
3. you're outgoing, interesting and fun
So when you're doing these routines it's not to entertain them like a clown but to be fun and interesting for the group/obstacles and the target just so happens gets to see it. After you've developed rapport with the group, you can isolate her with out the cb.
As for IOI's when you do the routine, run it on everyone but her, and if she forces you to do it, you need to make her do something to earn it, spin in a circle, whatever.

Malibu
03-23-2006, 04:38 PM
ah ...i get what your saying now...no...dont run the test on the target...your right...if you do you will be giving her IOI's etc....its ok to give her kino...so this is what I would do...
To obstacle: run trust test...
To target: take her hands (kino)...and then throw them away and say "nah I cant do it on you I dont know you well enough!!!"
The dhv still works because she saw you run it on the obstacle...and you have added a bit of kino and then turned away showing disinterest.
:cool:
Malibu

ware_ru
03-23-2006, 04:46 PM
Malibu, I'm glad I finally made myself clear. But with your method, i definitely see how the target is attracted, but at the same time the original problem that I was asking remains: the obstacle begins to be attracted to you more than she should be due to the kino and the specific attention.

Hatman
03-23-2006, 04:48 PM
If I say to the obstacle "give me your hands" and run it on her, I am getting kino and showing interest in the wrong girl. If I say to the target "give me your hands" and run it on her, I am giving her IOIs (kino, singling her out, turning toward her) before she deserves them, since I'm still in A2 and am not supposed to be IOI-ing yet.
What you're saying is not theoritically solid. Let me explain, piece by piece:

If I say to the obstacle "give me your hands" and run it on her, I am getting kino and showing interest in the wrong girl.
Yes, you are initiating kino, and yes you are DHVing to the obstacle, but you should not be showing interest in her. You are merely showing her something interesting.
Its ok to be interesting towards the obstacles and to show them something cool, but thats different from hitting on her. Hitting on someone is when you do it explicitly verbally:you talking to the target isn't hitting on her at all. Its merely having a conversation and being sociable with the set. On the otherhand, if you isolate and go kino-heavy, that is hitting which is what you want to avoid. Only ever hit on the target in A3 after she has earned it.
Also, it doesn't matter if the obstacle becomes attracted to you - that means she is at your behest.

If I say to the target "give me your hands" and run it on her, I am giving her IOIs (kino, singling her out, turning toward her) before she deserves them, since I'm still in A2 and am not supposed to be IOI-ing yet
You don't even have to do any of this: You are in a 3-set with one target: You DHV TO THE SET. That means entertaining the obstacles with various routines etc, and once you have won them over, you go "hang on, i've been ignoring your friend (i.e the target), let me make it upto her" or whatever depending on the situation.
again, you should not be IOI-ing to the target or anyone in set at all in A2. You are merely being interesting and showing them cool things etc that DHV for you. You only IOI the target after she has passed your challenges in A3.

The way I'm looking at these routines that have a single object is that they're fundamentally flawed because you have to give too much attention to any one piont. But obviously these things work, so how does one explain it?
This is false, just because you're using a routine on one obstacle, doesn't mean that the other doesn't hear it to DHV to her as well. Thus, the set can be DHV'd just by using the routine on one component within the set.

Is it just a calibration issue, where you must learn how to run the routines and make the person you're using seem like you're just using them as an object for the demonstration?
Yes. Never give IOI's to anyone in set during A1 or A2. But that doesn't mean you can't be interesting to them through your routines etc.
regards and good luck

TrueStory
03-23-2006, 04:50 PM
kind of.
When you're still in the set and you're working a single person I see one of two problems coming out: 1) you're working ONLY an obstacle, and thus paying TOO much attention to the obstacle and the group thinks she's the one you want and pushes toward that; or 2) you're working the target and showing too much interest before establishing F2M attraction.
So what do you do?
Ware_ru, you probably, need to do some calibration. If target is SHB then only attention she should get is little negging and cocky/funny. If she is a hot babe, you probably should pay little more attention to your target, but still flirt primarily with her. if she is just a babe, then you need to do more work with her than her obstacles
besides, for obstacles you are going streight into C1-C2 stages. you are going streight for rapport. You DO NOT care about attraction. You almost have to jump into c1 for obstacle and jump back into a2/a3 for your target.
Example:
pua[to obstacle]:So, you teach third grades? wow that's pretty demanding job... i have a 6 year old cousin and he is such a trouble. He is so cute though, but can be little whiny sometimes, i can't imagine you managing all 20 of them ..:)
obstacle: yeah ..i know it can be difficult at times
target: oh i have a six year old cousin too...
pua[to target]: ..hey..hey gosh stop interrupting :-p.. we are talking ...[to obstacle] is she always like that? ...jeez..how do you roll with her?
so you are trying to build rapport with obstacle. You only need to connect with them. but you are trying to build sexual tension with your target. you are not trying to connec with them just yet. Not until you isolate .

Malibu
03-23-2006, 04:51 PM
Malibu, I'm glad I finally made myself clear. But with your method, i definitely see how the target is attracted, but at the same time the original problem that I was asking remains: the obstacle begins to be attracted to you more than she should be due to the kino and the specific attention.
Ok...hmmm...she shouldn't...but even if she does...disregard it and isolate the target into A3/C1
:cool:
Malibu

ware_ru
03-23-2006, 05:10 PM
Hatman: great reply. Point by point:

Yes, you are initiating kino, and yes you are DHVing to the obstacle, but you should not be showing interest in her. You are merely showing her something interesting.
This is good. I forgot that kino isn't NECESSARILY an IOI, although we mostly use it as one (bait before release, her kino is an obvious IOI, etc)

You don't even have to do any of this: You are in a 3-set with one target: You DHV TO THE SET.
I agree; but my question was, if you do want to use it, when and how do you use something like the lying test. But now it's clear because I realize that kino isn't necessarily an IOI.
Truestory: Definitely right that I need calibration. Also, great insight on jumping into C1 with the obstacles; I never even thought about that but it seems to really cut through to the core of obstacle relationships.

Hatman
03-23-2006, 05:15 PM
Ware_ru, you probably, need to do some calibration. If target is SHB then only attention she should get is little negging and cocky/funny. If she is a hot babe, you probably should pay little more attention to your target, but still flirt primarily with her. if she is just a babe, then you need to do more work with her than her obstacles
besides, for obstacles you are going streight into C1-C2 stages. you are going streight for rapport. You DO NOT care about attraction. You almost have to jump into c1 for obstacle and jump back into a2/a3 for your target.
Example:
pua[to obstacle]:So, you teach third grades? wow that's pretty demanding job... i have a 6 year old cousin and he is such a trouble. He is so cute though, but can be little whiny sometimes, i can't imagine you managing all 20 of them ..:)
obstacle: yeah ..i know it can be difficult at times
target: oh i have a six year old cousin too...
pua[to target]: ..hey..hey gosh stop interrupting :-p.. we are talking ...[to obstacle] is she always like that? ...jeez..how do you roll with her?
so you are trying to build rapport with obstacle. You only need to connect with them. but you are trying to build sexual tension with your target. you are not trying to connec with them just yet. Not until you isolate .
i disagree with you entirely truestory. you still want to game the obstacles and get them attracted. Further, its the PUA's decision where he wants to take the set, not the obstacles. Thus, it doesnt matter if the obstacle fancies you, its your decision to game her, and if you decide to then game the target, then so be it.
Also, you have no idea of the social experience of the obstacle - though she is not as attractive as the target, it is no indication of her social calibration. Thus, going straight into comfort without attraction for the obstacles may come off as try-hard, since you haven't demonstrated enough value to warrant a start in comfort in the first place.
So its a much safe option to DHV to the obstacles to gain their attraction, rather than going straight into comfort. Its not a matter of caring yourself or not, but to disable the obstacles under the most solid game.
regards

TrueStory
03-23-2006, 05:17 PM
Truestory: Definitely right that I need calibration. Also, great insight on jumping into C1 with the obstacles; I never even thought about that but it seems to really cut through to the core of obstacle relationships.
When people do business networking they are using Mystery Method Model.
Except they go streight into C1-3 and skip S1-3.
When people make friends we briefly run through A1-3 and skip S1-3. We are "attracted" to our friends. Even guy friends. But not in sexual way. We are attracted to them, they are fun. We want to spend time with them.
In sales, we go through A1-3 briefly and stay in C1-3 for very long time. Customer has to like salesperson. And he has to trust him too, in order to have a sale.
In attraction we do full blown M3.
It's unversal. your obstacles are really your friends. Be nice to them. You are not eliminating cockblocks ...you are making new friends. So go into C1-3 and stay there for a while.

TrueStory
03-23-2006, 05:20 PM
i disagree with you entirely truestory. you still want to game the obstacles and get them attracted. Further, its the PUA's decision where he wants to take the set, not the obstacles. Thus, it doesnt matter if the obstacle fancies you, its your decision to game her, and if you decide to then game the target, then so be it.
Also, you have no idea of the social experience of the obstacle - though she is not as attractive as the target, it is no indication of her social calibration. Thus, going straight into comfort without attraction for the obstacles may come off as try-hard, since you haven't demonstrated enough value to warrant a start in comfort in the first place.
So its a much safe option to DHV to the obstacles to gain their attraction, rather than going straight into comfort. Its not a matter of caring yourself or not, but to disable the obstacles under the most solid game.
regards
Ok. This holds true if obstacle is a girl.
If obstacle is a guy?

ware_ru
03-23-2006, 05:36 PM
Hatman has me swayed guys. and I think you, TrueStory are also saying the same thing. I misinterpreted you at first, and he probably did too: I thought you were neglecting A1-A3 entirely, but you're not. Guy obstacles... you're also getting them "attracted" to you (not sexually) by goign through A1 and A2 and I'm not sure what about A3, but then you go into comfort where they like you.
So like you said, you DO go through the attraction phase with the obstacles, but the goal is to get into comfort with them.
But now I go into another question: You have the obstacles attracted, do you want them to continue to look at you as someone they desire sexually? Wouldn't that cause a cockblock? I think so, and I suppose that the attraction of the target, and your interest in her, and your skill as a PUA is supposed to sidestep that cockblock. Anyone disagree; i.e. do you think that it wouldn't cause a potential cockblock?

TrueStory
03-23-2006, 05:43 PM
Hatman has me swayed guys. and I think you, TrueStory are also saying the same thing. I misinterpreted you at first, and he probably did too: I thought you were neglecting A1-A3 entirely, but you're not. Guy obstacles... you're also getting them "attracted" to you (not sexually) by goign through A1 and A2 and I'm not sure what about A3, but then you go into comfort where they like you.
So like you said, you DO go through the attraction phase with the obstacles, but the goal is to get into comfort with them.
But now I go into another question: You have the obstacles attracted, do you want them to continue to look at you as someone they desire sexually? Wouldn't that cause a cockblock? I think so, and I suppose that the attraction of the target, and your interest in her, and your skill as a PUA is supposed to sidestep that cockblock. Anyone disagree; i.e. do you think that it wouldn't cause a potential cockblock?
Hatman is right. You do want to get some attraction from obstacle.
We are assuming here obstacle is a girl
But, where we disagree is how much. I think (and that's just me) it's more important to build great rapport with your obstacle. I rarely game them. Most of the time my obstacles are UG's or guys.
Some guys game target and obstacles evenly. That's good strategy also.
I don't thin there is right or wrong answer. Each has it's benefits.