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MauveandPink
03-21-2006, 06:30 AM
This is an interesting topic, so would be good to get everyone's opinion on who is correct in this respect.
In David DeAngelo's newsletters he consistently maintains that opening up to a woman and showing one's "vulnerable side" is akin to re-igniting their inner wuss, the suppression of which was the reason that the girl was attracted to you in the first place. He claims that persistently talking about one's inner thoughts, emotions fears etc will sooner or later drive the girl away.
Mystery on the other hand says that (can't remember if it was A or C, still new to this) that one of his favourite ploys when speaking to women was to convey to them some of his vulnerability, eg when he spoke about being extremely worried about one of his nieces when she fell down the stairs. He added that he believed this was a crucial element in getting the girl to fall for you.
I personally have up to now used the DeAngelo methods, with varying degrees of success. However, I am now beginning to believe that MM might be the way forward, a particular problem I had before with women was not being able to get past a certain stage, it stemmed from the fact I just didn't like talking about myself aside from cocky-funny or more AFC arrogant statements. The women always tended to get frustrated, and then pretty much just gave up on me and either didn't speak any more or just left it at that, and we ended up being more acquaintances than anything.
So I am wondering is it necessary to start revealing part of yourself so that she can develop a special emotional connection with you or will any such disclosures immediately ensure you are bracketed in the AFC/wuss category? There could of course be a happy medium I suppose, but it's hard to know where to draw the line.
Any feedback will be greatly appreciated, you guys are great for this stuff!

PUAmoxie
03-21-2006, 07:39 AM
David D. isn't against opening up and starting a relationship. He is against doing that too early. If you have seen his stuff, you undoubtedly have seen him say he isn't against serious relationships, but that he is more about being an "Attraction expert," not a relationship guru. If you read his emails, he harps on people who "open up" as you say because they do it way before they should. They haven't established nearly enough attraction, and they never seem to ease into it. All of the sudden, they're flooding the girl with all of their emotions and telling her she's the prettiest and smartest and funniest and blah blah blah girl they've ever seen and think it would be great if they got married and had 17 kids and... you get the friggin' idea.
I also believe that the comfort stages are in no way contradictory to David D's teachings. One can (quite successfully) blend the two. David D definitely focuses almost solely on A1-A3 (AND Inner Game), but he brings guys up to speed on that quickly. His material is great for A1-A3 when people "get it." However, many guys have a serious problem with calibrating their social interactions. This is why you'll see people who love his stuff and people who hate it and few in between.
David D has some great inner game materials, and is quite useful for A1-A3. C+F is also something that should be kept up throughout the entire relationship to keep that spark from dying. MM is a more complete system from Opening to F-closing.

Cedar
03-21-2006, 07:44 AM
David D covers inner game and some A1-A2 material. Mystery's vulnerability routines occur during the comfort phase, which David D doesn't address to my knowledge.
Cocky Funny and ball busting should only occur in the first 5-15 minutes of the interaction. After that you lower the energy and get to know the girl as a real person, while exposing yourself.
This builds an emotional bond most women need before getting physical and beginning a relationship.

Bunny
03-21-2006, 08:28 AM
Gents,
MM is a system. It’s more of a art than it is a science. You need to learn the steps and rules concrete. After you know how everything fits together then you can bend and adapt the rules. Mystery’s application of MM is going to look slightly different than someone else’s application.
Here’s something to reinforce what I’m saying and it comes straight from the creator’s mouth.
“MM consists of three main areas:
PART 1: A Format (or game plan), which has 3 stages, each with 3 phases.
PART 2: Mental tools to get you from phase to phase (isolation tactics, kiss tactics, extraction tactics, ect).
PART 3: Scripts and personality conveying material (content) to fill in each of the 9 phases.?
Mystery
Think about it.
Bunny!

Aequitas
03-21-2006, 11:05 AM
Cocky Funny and ball busting should only occur in the first 5-15 minutes of the interaction. After that you lower the energy and get to know the girl as a real person, while exposing yourself.
So Cedar, you would recommend shutting down the CF completely after attraction? Or just tone it down?
The reason I ask is that I've heard so many times "stick with what got her attracted to you in the first place".

Hawkish
03-21-2006, 11:32 AM
All of this stems from how you relate to her. Being a wuss never works even when being yourself. Be cocky funny, and keep it up. Getting the emotional bond does not mean and i think mystery would agree, being a pansy and crying to her about your problems. Let her get to know you, not the weak you, but the strong you. Women like strenght. :cool:
p.s dyd and mm can work together i think...mm is better though

Cedar
03-21-2006, 11:43 AM
So Cedar, you would recommend shutting down the CF completely after attraction? Or just tone it down?
Not a big fan of CF to begin with. But yes, don't continually run CF on a girl. It'll get you laid, but t won't endure you to her emotionally, ie, hard to keep her as an LTR. She sees you as this big bag-o-fun. But no substance.

The reason I ask is that I've heard so many times "stick with what got her attracted to you in the first place".
I'm not the expert on comfort that I'd like to be. I've been running the occassional attraction material during comfort and I'm happy with it. If there's someone around here with more experience, I'd love to hear it.

Face
03-21-2006, 11:55 AM
I'm not the expert on comfort that I'd like to be. I've been running the occassional attraction material during comfort and I'm happy with it. If there's someone around here with more experience, I'd love to hear it.
I don't know about more experience, but I have some. I use C/F in every stage, naturally tuning it down as I get thru Comfort stages. But, that is my natural personality--I am C/F to my boss, my parents, etc so I have no choice...like the story of the scorpion and the frog.
But I would suggest to keep the C/F on high volume when w/her in social settings. She wants to see it then. She wants to see other laugh with you, and you direct traffic. When alone, still throw little jabs but tune it down. If you want to be C/F while alone, direct it towards others, or the TV show you are watching, etc..NOT directly at her.
Note: Anytime I've dropped the C/F stuff before nailing her, I've been blown out. 100%. I have no choice.

Bunny
03-21-2006, 12:17 PM
Yes, I realize this question isn’t directed at me. Because it’s such an interesting thread I have decided to invite myself into the conversation.

So Cedar, you would recommend shutting down the CF completely after attraction? Or just tone it down?
Aequitas, My understanding behind advice to stop with cocky/funny stuff after attraction phase is directed at the gents who have to work at being C/F. The guys who have C/F routines and used canned C/F stuff. It’s not designed for Comfort phase. It won’t work.
However. If you are naturally a funny than by all means. Be yourself. Comfort is the portion of MM where you soften slightly and highlight self to with your target. This is where you expose your underbelly, so to speak. I don’t share weaknesses or faults. Instead I expose personality traits. There is a difference.
Anyway. If you’re naturally a cocky and funny guy then carry on. If you’re your using canned material and routines then they’re best suited for attraction phase. I hope I’m explaining my thoughts well. I’m having some difficulty finding the perfect words.


The reason I ask is that I've heard so many times "stick with what got her attracted to you in the first place".
This is a “be yourself? type quote. Insinuating impersonation is a disguise and mask. Attraction is an acceptation to this line of thought. At least at first it may seem unnatural, but soon the attraction phase will be nature. You will become more alpha. This will be who you are. The transition maybe bumpy, but believe and succeed!
Bunny!

CandymanPUA
03-21-2006, 04:08 PM
I've been working with both DYD and MM but in regards to showing a vulnerable side it is in the comfort stage which is after the attraction stage and the attraction stage is a lot about conveying that you a high status guy through the use of confident body language, vibes, negs, and DHV routines/stories but after all that and the woman is successfully percieving you as an out of this world high status guy then its ok to share with them a vulnerable side because your coming from a place of high status.
imagine it like this: your growing bigger and bigger through out the attraction stage nd she may or may not be growing smaller and then during comfort you use that new power you have and you make her grow to something near your level.
with women an afc will acknowledge her compliment her attempt to connect with her but a low status afc guy's words mean very little whereas a high status guy his opinion means ALOT more. the vulnerable side is to build a human genuine emotional connection and display that you are not a guy who is never affected by drama.
so in short showing vulnerable side and being AFC are not connected. nd its to do with status.

dudemtl
03-21-2006, 04:34 PM
This is a great thread.
In fact, when I lost my Virginity a coupla years back , I was ALL about C/F with my target ( I had just read DYD) .. the MINUTE I told her I was a virgin (and it was genuine) that's when she knew she wanted me. Counter intuitive, no?
Fact is, I built myself up so large, and then connected with her on something that totally threw her.. but the point is, the attraction was built, the status was built, the character was built, and then the vulnerability gave it that special something that made me three dimensional.
My question is this: who here uses vulnerability on a regular basis?
I have a friend, who is Irish, and uses a "car bomb" routine, that gets girls crying, and then f-ing him by the end of the night. He did this to f-close two HB's at the same time! And he's a natural. So, at least it DOES work for some.
Anyone?

MauveandPink
03-23-2006, 08:34 AM
Dudemtl, if you don't mind me asking, how far exactly should one get above the girl before showing that particular side to her? I know it is a bit difficult to explain, but any hints will be helpful.
Also, what is that routine your Irish friend uses? It sounds interesting.

dudemtl
03-23-2006, 03:04 PM
Dudemtl, if you don't mind me asking, how far exactly should one get above the girl before showing that particular side to her? I know it is a bit difficult to explain, but any hints will be helpful.
Also, what is that routine your Irish friend uses? It sounds interesting.
Well, I guess the quick answer to that would be in c1 C2.
The VAH says that you may lose a girl because she may think you are too good for her.
As far as I can feel... I would say when there is a real sense of connection there. You want her to feel closer to you. You want her to be able to *justify* becoming physical with you.
A good time would be after she conveys something of a vulnerability to you. Maybe not even.
However, I would definetly say that even though you are conveying *vulnerability* it does NOT mean that it will consist of a DLV.
The vulnerability should still be a DHV. It's just not the type of DHV you would convey to a girl right away. ie. You are sensitive, you are capable of emotion, capabably of crying.
The one my friend uses is very good. He, like me is an actor. Basically it's not so much what he says but how he says it. When he runs the routine, he is on the VERGE of tears, but holding it back.
Many inexperienced actors, when given a scene that calls for crying will just right out bawl their eyes out. This is wrong.
People try NOT to cry when they are about to cry.
So what he does is, he'll build up the story and then get to more climactic moments, he'll say "After I heard the loud blast........ I walked to her car (getting choked up)... I looked inside... ....(more choked)... and then I saw....(Holds in tears.. doesn't say a word).
When they start touching him saying 'oh, I'm so sorry" he'll be like "No.... it's okay..... it's okay...." And he'll let THEM escalate until he finally 'gives in'.
It's SO evil, but it works. He f-closed a FFM 3 way this way a couple weeks back.
But remember, he speaks in an Irish dialect the WHOLE TIME. He's Canadian.
It's just a character. And the routine is congruent to the character. In a stereotypical way, of course, but they buy it.

Dr_Swift
03-23-2006, 03:19 PM
My opinion:
Cocky funny constantly till the day you die. Can't beat the stuff. Dial up the attraction more and more. Make it constant. Make it who you are. Then build MM arround it.
Having said that I can see that Cedar and I stand on oposite sides of a fence here.
I'm a CF fan. He's not. Probibly it just comes down to personal preference.

Cedar
03-23-2006, 03:37 PM
I'm a CF fan. He's not. Probibly it just comes down to personal preference.
Running an attraction tool throughout the sarge makes you more of a dancing monkey than human being. That goes true for ANY attraction tool.
CF isn't big on my favorites list becuase its a blended disqualification/attreaction tool. Requiring more field time to calibrate than say storytelling. It's also overused. Some women are repelled by it. And it works far better on the high school and college crowd than the 30-something crowd I prefer.
If your in college, you CAN fuck chicks using no method and pure CF. That doesn't make you a skilled PUA. It makes you a one trick pony. I prefer my tools be more versatile.

Dr_Swift
03-24-2006, 01:06 PM
Well Cedar as I said we disagree. But that's ok. There's more than one way to play this game.
30-something I'm plain not interested in - unless they happen to be exceptionally attractive. University students, hot ones, and other hot 18~30 odds.That's what I'm interested in. So our goals are different. I've never found a woman that doesn't respond to cocky funny (well there are the very occasional times she takes it the wrong way - but who cares, biatch isn't what I'm looking for anyway.) and I do it on practically every woman I meet. Either way if what you do gets you results then stick with it.
I'm quite sure it's not the be-all and end-all and I believe you when you say you can get on without it. As I said though I never cease being C&F, call it personal preference.