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Ringer
11-30-2006, 08:35 AM
I'm curious here, I had a girl just come over to <insert random bullshit excuse here>, bsaically a 5 minute job, and we ended up spending a good 2 1/2 hours together, on my bed, just laughing and joking; I was showing her some cool art stuff and she was asking me about my band etc. Despite the fact she had prior engagements, we talked through them and when it was time to go - she said she should go - (I'd already mentioned yesterday that I was quite busy today) she said, out of nowhere 'Sorry for taking up all your time'.
What, in your opinions, does this mean? Is it an indicator of LSE? Or a DLV? The two are similar I know, I'm just curious why she would say that at the end and what it means that she said it?

Rewok
11-30-2006, 10:07 AM
you shouldve DHV'd her... like, given her DHV...
oh yeah, SOI or IOI. like ":no problem, i really enjoyed spending time with you", or the like
shes testing you to see if you like her.. ie. she wants some A3 game, and based on that statement you got A2 down pretty well
-Rewok

Jack_Daniels
11-30-2006, 03:02 PM
She likes you in the way where she kind of looks up to you too. Its a really cool thing sometimes, all she wanted to hear you say was that you were glad she came over and hung out with you. But if you didn't say anything like that, thats great too, as Harlequin suggested in one of his posts
"Hope + Doubt = Passion." She wants you, so give her some hope and obviously she's already supplying the doubt so you've got her.
Honestly, there's nothing more beautiful to me than when a girl says something vulnerable like that and throws me those hopeful eyes. Enjoy yourself as much as you can, but remember Ross Jeffries rule: "Always leave her better than you found her." When girls have LSE they tend to look up to guys like us and it is very possible to end up hurting them. Its not a good feeling when you do, for you or her. Just saying.

Ringer
11-30-2006, 03:17 PM
Oh man, Jack Daniels, vulnerability in women - I can't help myself to act the damn knight in shining armour. I love vulnerability in women; I love to act the strong protector man.
So you guys think its a definite LSE indicator?
Rewok: I've a feeling I'll be at the same club as her tomorrow night - do you think it's OK to mention that I had fun to her, and at which stage in the conversation? Opener, middle?
Jack Daniels: could you elaborate on this further please?
"Hope + Doubt = Passion." She wants you, so give her some hope and obviously she's already supplying the doubt so you've got her."
She also is seeing some guy long-distance; do you think this affects her meaning?
Cheers for your opinions guys!

Devious
11-30-2006, 05:55 PM
It isn't nececarilly a DLV, or LSE behavior, I wouldn't read into in much.
I would have just responded,
"No worries," and left it like that.
Seems to me like you're in comfort. Remember, game isn't linear, although you're in comfort, when you see her again, what you're going to have to do, is run some attraction again, and then move back into comfort.
Hope this helps, man.

Legion5
11-30-2006, 08:06 PM
I'm curious here, I had a girl just come over to <insert random bullshit excuse here>, bsaically a 5 minute job, and we ended up spending a good 2 1/2 hours together, on my bed, just laughing and joking; I was showing her some cool art stuff and she was asking me about my band etc. Despite the fact she had prior engagements, we talked through them and when it was time to go - she said she should go - (I'd already mentioned yesterday that I was quite busy today) she said, out of nowhere 'Sorry for taking up all your time'.
What, in your opinions, does this mean? Is it an indicator of LSE? Or a DLV? The two are similar I know, I'm just curious why she would say that at the end and what it means that she said it?
It's an IOI. She DLV'ed you by taking up your busyness.
Conversly it could be an IOI in the direction of confirming your frame that you are a busy person. (which is a DHV)
ie she confirmed your frame so it's an IOI.
I wouldn't consider it a big on as it's not very obvious.
Not like saying, "You're hot" or something. In fact it's a pretty lame IOI but whatever.
-
Agree with the IOI thing to cap off her weak IOI and promote better ones.
Or you could reframe it: "You did it because you thought I was hot"
If she goes with it "It's the thought that counts, even if you did take up my valuable time, at least you did it by oogeling me and I like you for that"
Notice how you confirm the frame of the first IOI.
-
On the other hand this is a total 100% lame thing and you just shouldn't give a damn. ha ha find something more interesting to worry about.

Ringer
12-01-2006, 06:27 AM
It isn't nececarilly a DLV, or LSE behavior, I wouldn't read into in much.
I would have just responded,
"No worries," and left it like that.
Seems to me like you're in comfort. Remember, game isn't linear, although you're in comfort, when you see her again, what you're going to have to do, is run some attraction again, and then move back into comfort.
Hope this helps, man.
Thanks, man. I think that's all I responded with, I said it 'was cool' or something. She does seem to have low-self esteem, and I'm trying to work out how to work this in my favour. The non-linear bit about game is something I'm trying to get my head around - until now I've always just gone with my natural abilities, now I'm trying to apply some kind of structure and it feels a bit odd to go backwards to go forwards again. Have you got any tips on how to make this feel natural, for both me and her?
I just worry that, now I've got comfort, then if I start going back to Attraction and flirting then I could just come off as the kind of flirty friend, rather than a potential lover. Any tips?

Devious
12-01-2006, 07:42 PM
Thanks, man. I think that's all I responded with, I said it 'was cool' or something. She does seem to have low-self esteem, and I'm trying to work out how to work this in my favour. The non-linear bit about game is something I'm trying to get my head around - until now I've always just gone with my natural abilities, now I'm trying to apply some kind of structure and it feels a bit odd to go backwards to go forwards again. Have you got any tips on how to make this feel natural, for both me and her?
I just worry that, now I've got comfort, then if I start going back to Attraction and flirting then I could just come off as the kind of flirty friend, rather than a potential lover. Any tips?
As far as making the structure feel natural, it comes with field experience. At first you're going to have to implement the structure consciencly because it isn't natural to you. With field experience, you become calibrated and will be able to follow the basic structure without thinking.
As far as going back into attraction, what I meant was; one or two attraction routines to bring her back into state, before you proceed with comfort.
I also do this with my phone game. I'll go into rapport/comfort on the initial sarge, and I'll get the number, then, I'll call her later that night, or next day, run 1 or 2 DHV's, and set up a meet.
Ringer, what I really reccomend doing is running the newbie mission, if you haven't already. This will help you tremendously.
The newbie mission I did, was run an Opener until I felt comfortable. Then, I added a DHV, then when I was comfortable with that, I would stack on another DHV, and so on.
Cheers!

Ringer
12-02-2006, 02:01 PM
Thanks for taking the time to explain that, Devious, I appreciate it. I see what you mean about going back into attraction; advice noted! Regarding the newbie mission, it's something I'm probably going to try out - trouble is I don't actually own the VAH yet (as soon as I have some spare cash I'll be getting it), so I guess that's step one. At the moment my game is based basically on my natural game, with a few tips I've picked up here and in the OAP. My game is pretty good overall, it just sometimes falls to shit when I get emotionally involved in a situation.

Jack_Daniels
12-03-2006, 05:58 PM
Hey, Yeah I can explain that. (BTW, I love vulnerability in girls too, its great unless you actually end up hurting them, then you feel like shit)
Okay, if she was displaying LSE behavior with saying she was sorry for taking up your time then she doubts you like her, but she wants you to.
Making a girl want to have you (hope) but unsure if she can (doubt) is what MM is all about, you neg her and make her doubt herself and then you DHV and make her want you, then you qualify her and she gets a little bit more hope, but then you push pull in qualification and keep her guessing. Validation should always be just out of reach.
Essentially, this is what I do with girls: I act like I don't know how I feel about them. Lots of push-pull and mixed messages. Mixed messages of hope and doubt are great because they also confuse her and occupy her mind. The trick to making someone think they love you is to occupy their mind.
About her having a bf long distance, you need more info. Does he come back frequently? Does she visit frequently? If they're seeing eachother practically every weekend or two then she does have a legit bf and you need to BF Destroy (search it). If its a flimsy relationship, forget she ever mentioned it and game on. She may not be able to get emotionally involved with you if she really loves the guy but you can still fuck her. Do a lot of "our world" things, like create conspiracies you're in on together or act like King and Queen of the club/party/wherever you are, by making her world smaller she'll forget about that guy whose disembodied voice compliments her every once in awhile.
Good luck, you're the prize, I hope she gets you.

Ringer
12-04-2006, 05:17 AM
Hey Jack Daniels, thanks for the post. Appreciate it.
There is definite push-pull going on here. I made another post on here about how there was a risk that I'd be spending too much time with her (i.e. us hanging out was Thursday, then Fri through to Monday, the Xmas Ball tonight), so I've been deliberately busy on Saturday night and Sunday (parties and a meeting with my band); and I've made sure she knows this. Hopefully this has put me on her mind. I'm also hoping that the whole black tie/tuxedo thing at the Ball tonight can play me in a different light, like BOOM! ha...
She sees the boyfriend about once a month or less. I don't respect it at all; but he is her 'first love' and I think the guy she lost her virginity to, so it's not easy. Having said that, I know their relationship is not tight; my intuition tells me that she's more in love with the idea of the relationship (it's an older guy she had a teenage crush on for a long time, apparently) than the relationship itself (she split up with him and got back together a while back, and is talking about being single next academic year, i.e. September).
We have the little conspiracies, the 'our world' things. We also have a lot of eye contact, and our body-language always seems to mirror each other's. No doubt in my mind that there is something there (hell, we've even fooled around when drunk, twice now), but it's getting her to overcome her feelings of guilt, and her sense of 'duty'; and getting her to overcome these feelings in a permanent way and not just for one night - this is the sticking point.
I appreciate your kind words, man.

Jack_Daniels
12-04-2006, 04:35 PM
Hey, it sounds like you're doing great man. Good to hear.
I would reccomend searching bf destroying. I've never really had to use it, but apparently it works to both get the girl in bed and also to usually ends with a permanent break up with her current bf. If you want this girl more than one time then this is a must. Other than tactics and all that, it sounds like you both like one another, and it looks like you know how to continue that. Once her current feelings for you are stronger than the ones for that other dude then she'll make the decision quickly. Her problem may be that she doesn't want to be without a legit bf. If you are down to date her, just play up on comfort and trust and let her know that she'll have someone for her after she leaves him.
I never use the stuff myself, but Ross Jeffries I'm sure has a pattern that would help with this situation. If you can't find any here check fast seduction.
But really, if you guys have fooled around she has already cheated, so it doesn't really matter how many more times or how much more you do, in my eyes at least.
Enjoy.

stonez067
12-04-2006, 08:02 PM
u should ve f closed period.

Ringer
12-05-2006, 06:58 AM
Hey guys,
well last night was the Christmas Ball. I was social proofing all the way; I knew the guys who'd organised it so I was on table #1, getting free wine. There was a jazz band playing so I went for a dance with 5 of my girl friends. It was hilariously good fun!
Anyway, after a while of this, I hooked onto a couple of her girlfriends who invited me into the group with her in. Ended up dancing alone with her and flirting a lot with her, even isolated her and hung alone with her for a long time. I still didn't go for the public kiss-close, simply cos I don't think she'd be 100% comfortable with that. Anyway, at the end of the night I'd ended up at an after-party and she wasn't about. So I give her a call, ask her what's up and she says I can come over to hers. When I get there, I ask if I can stay with her and she says yeah. Unfortunately, her housemate came in and threw me out of bed! Ho hum...Stonez, interesting you say that. There's been a fair bit of debate on here lately about whether its good to f-close if you want a girl for more than just sex. I probably could have f-closed her one time, but I think it would just generate negative feelings and guilt, and those feelings would have become attached to me.
Well anyway, I texted her today. Said she looked stunning last night, and she replied with 'thanks, you looked pretty good too ;) ', which is surely a good thing.
Thing is, I'm still not sure where to go with this. I do like her - I would date her - but how to proceed? For instance, we have this singing rehearsal thing tonight but I've had to cancel cos I've got VIP at a concert (I'd invite her but she is actually in charge of the rehearsal). Jack Daniels, once more - cheers for the advice, but I'm pretty confused now about how to give her comfort, trust and to let her know I'll be there, without her either a) taking it for granted, or b) ending in LJBF zone. Any ideas?

Ringer
12-10-2006, 06:26 PM
Rightio, I'm bumping this (in addition to the above post which you might have missed cos the forums got taken down straight after I posted it ;) )

Anyway, on the Wednesday after the Monday of the ball - so last Wednesday - I went on a boy's night out because I'd heard from her that she wasn't going out that night and had other plans. So I drank a shitload of vodka and didn't really notice it until I was legless. My friends decided to try and tell me continuously that she was just playing me etc etc. Whilst I don't believe this, I ended up talking shit about this girl and telling her that my friends all think she's using me and, well, you know the kind of shit.

I went round and saw her on Thursday and apologised, we both apologised and everything was cool. Some hugs and a kiss on the cheek when I left. Thought after that that I'd give her some space for a week or so, and see if she gets in touch.

She got in touch the next day. Not for a serious chat, but just over some trivial stuff. So I guess from her perspective things are totally cool.

I think though, it's time to have the chat. Because we seem to be in a place where she's calling me up, and we're staying in bed together and stuff's happening etc, but she seems to be burying her head in the sand about it and acting like nothing's happening. I think I need to sort this out so I'm planning on going round tomorrow and not being full-on about it, but just talk about how much fun we have, how we've taken it further and how she said at the time that it 'felt right', and how I think we should explore these feelings together.

Ringer
12-17-2006, 04:18 PM
Yo,

so I saw the girl on the Monday night just gone. We hung out for a little while, had some fun and created lots more in-jokes. I also decided to let her know about this whole 'situation'. I had a clear idea about what to say, and kept it short and sweet. The stuff I said was punctuated with, I guess what you might call 'soundbites', specific ideas and thoughts I wanted her to think about. After all, I didn't want her to go away thinking 'oh he likes me and was talking for 15 minutes about something rather vague' - I spoke for 3 minutes and threw in some memorable phrases about things I wanted her to think about. I told her to take some time and get back to me. She said she would,we hugged; body language was good and open towards me through the time I was speaking, she didn't back off or get defensive when I was mentioning why, if he boyfriend is the guy who can satisfy her on all the ways he should, then why are these things happening?; eye contact was strong throughout and we were laughing and smiling when talking about the good times we've had.

Now, I knew she was leaving for holiday (not with her boyfriend) on the Friday, hence why I played my card then. I figured if things fucked up then I'd just use the Christmas hols to get over her, no problem.

I went out a day after seeing her, and two days before she was leaving for the holiday, and damn...didn't know this but the boyfriend had obviously arranged to come up to say 'bye' before she left. So they were in the club. I didn't pay them much attention or anything at the start but after a while ended up talking for a bit, basically AMOG'ing the boyfriend and being the cool guy. I realised though that I should just get out and left the club (met some other girls but that's another story ;) )

Anyway, I didn't want her to think that I was all cool with the boyfriend and that. So I texted her on the thursday (the day before she left) saying, more or less, 'Have a great time...(cracked some private jokes)...but think about what I said while you're over there, think about what you want and how much fun you want to have. We both know we'd have an amazing time together. Now go get packing!' Just being honest, dropping the game really. She replied with 'Thank you Ringer for your text, hope you have a great Christmas. Will speak soon. x' Given that the bulk of my text had been about the situation between us, the 'Will speak soon' could be taken as a reference to that - take some time abroad, think about things and get back to me. Who knows?

I'm gonna be away from the forum over Christmas (no internet for a while); so I'm wondering how you guys would deal with the various ways this situation can pan out? I guess it could go:

1) decides she wants me,
2) LJBF-land
3) sticks her head in the sand and tries to avoid the situation

Way I see it, is:

1) all good!
2) not really sure we can be 'just friends' without going too far again - how to tell her this without being AFC and drama-queen about it?
3) Still need some closure, but don't want to push her because that's AFC...

Your thoughts and advice would be much appreciated!

horus
12-19-2006, 10:43 PM
Dude, donít do the talk. For many reasons. Here is my take on it.

I wouldnít have had the talk.

Having the talk means for her PRESSURE. During and especially after the talk many things will run through her mind. She will feel pressured because now she feels she has to make a choice. She may not be ready to break up with her bf and may not want to hurt you in the process. So she will feel pressured. Another possibility is that she may not want to let both of you go. Either way if you push her she will take the SECURE path, her bf. Itís something constant and routine. Changing your life for something uncertain or something with less comfort is hard, especially for women. All I would have done is kept triggering the attraction, this would better because once attraction is high, her Logical brain will try to rationalize the emotions and she will leave him and come to you. SO much easier that way.


David DeAngelo:
"Trigger the attraction and everything will take care of itself"

Now as I can see youíve already had the talk. I need to hear exactly what you said in order to give you my honest opinion. However judging from the way things have panned out. It all depends on how she takes this. Iím not a psychic so I canít say for sure how itís going to work out. However, I think she will come back and avoid the situation or give you the LJBF speech. Only because having that talk to me is AFC. But then again itís all in how you worded it and said it. But I would rather focus on what to say when she calls you and gives you her answer.

If you get the LJBF speech:

you "you know I was thinking over the holidays about what I said to you and Iím glad you came to this conclusion, I was thinking that maybe its best if we jus leave it be and take it day by day"

If she avoids you:
Donít call her. When you see her ask about her holidays and if they were enjoyable. You may be able to confront her on it but you have to feel her out. If she kind of flirty Ask if you see sheís got that "AWKWARD" look, then donít ask and act like you even forgot you asked her.

If she says I can't decided:
Tell her itís cool, take your time I know itís a big decision. Sometimes Ill say to a girl with a bf, what would you rather have Chocolate or Double Chocolate cake? One time I was seeing this girl with a boyfriend and it must have been at least one month after I said that, and I walked into her house and handed her a piece of double chocolate cake, after she ate it, she said, that was amazing cake. I turned to her and said "see I told you" she paused for a minute looked at me smiled and gave me this look like, wow your awesome.

IN either of these cases ALL in not LOST. You can still get this girl I believe no matter what. I am in a similar situation right now and am looking at the boyfriend destroyer thread; I think I will try it.

Listen you already got the girl, you own her. She just doesnít know it yet, but she will. And If Mr. AFC wants to come up for air, chain his ass down.

Good Luck and let me know what happens.

Ringer
12-20-2006, 05:09 AM
Ok here's what I said:

'We have a lot of fun together, a really great time don't we? (smile) And I like being with you - I like you - but I'm not cool doing these things while you're seeing some other guy. Now, I've got nothing personal against <boyfriend>, and I know you've had a massive crush on him for ages (smile at her), but I want you to think about why, if he is the guy who is able to satisfy you in all the ways he should, then why do these things keep happening? And, if you just see me as a friend as you keep telling me and keep telling yourself, then why do they keep happening with me?

I want everything to be fun and easy going between us. But right now, in this situation, that's not really happening. Because we do have an amazing time together, we have a lot of fun together (smile). But recently we've taken things quite a lot further than 'friends', and as you said to me at the time, it 'felt right' - and what is this whole thing about if its not about feelings? I'm not asking you for some major commitment (smile) but I think we owe it to ourselves to explore those feelings together.

I know thats probably quite a lot to think about, so take some time to think about what I've said. I like hanging out with you but I've always known what I wanted from you; now I think it's time for you to think about what it is that you want from me. I'm going to give you some space, so take some time, and when you've thought about it, get in touch and let me know. (smile, hug)'

I don't think that is particularly high pressure at all. The situation needed addressing though, because I'm not cool with things keeping on going as they are now; not now that I've realised that I'd want more from this girl than a one night stand.

As I say, both our body language was very open and relaxed throughout. I'm a confident speaker too, so my voice was projecting well and not wavering. Eye contact was constant. She raised no objections to what I said, and it only took less than 3 minutes to say. None of it was pleading; in fact it was very laid-back all in all. Lots of smiling and eye contact. I am also a firm believer that it isnt so much what you say, but how you say it. As I stayed confident and composed throughout, and non-desperate, low pressure, I don't think it was AFC.

Hopefully, you can see the way that I've tried to structure the talk around certain key points and phrases to get them inside her head. I know what you said about pressure but really, this situation has been going on for about 2 months now and she has failed to address it; and actively been pretending that nothing's been happening. So while I hear the 'Take care of the attraction, and the rest will take care of itself' quote, the attraction is there and has been there for some time. But the rest has not been taking care of itself, other than the occasional night - if she was single it would have been so easy. But now she is dating her older brother's best friend (cliche but she's had a crush on him since she was a teenager), its a bit trickier. That's partly why I referred to her as having a crush on him in the present tense - not the past. The implication is that the crush is still present and hasn't progressed anywhere. And that's why she's not satisfied. I kept stressing fun and enjoyment because I know there have been times in the past when she's thought her boyfriend was boring.

The 'talk' was not about pressuring her into making a decision at all. In fact, very little in that implies any pressure from me to her. Rather, its just about steering her around to think about what's happening, and why. I understood before I spoke to her that if I tried to push her into something, she would push back and take the easy option of keeping things as they are. In fact, she's done that before, that's why I went low-pressure this time.

Like I say, the text I got the day before she went away ended with 'Will speak soon.x' To my ears (given that my text before I'd mentioned about the situation), that sounds like a 'Will speak soon (about the situation).' What do you think?

Now, here's the problem. I don't want to keep on keeping on like this with her; if I get LJBF'd, or if she tries to avoid the issue, I can't be bothered dealing with this anymore. Life would be simpler without it. So how do you go about exiting from this without seeming total AFC, or spiteful? I've got one or two commitments with her at university that therefore I'd prefer to get out of too - but obviously I don't want to go all 'drama queen' on it.

horus
12-21-2006, 11:32 PM
I see things a little differently now. I’m glad you toke the time to explain exactly how this went about. It's so key; I agree it’s not what you say it’s how you say it. And by the way things sound you said it perfect.

But I have to say you know to YOU and to US it’s no pressure, but I think to her its pressure. Not that you are pressuring her but just that she’s fighting her emotions. She’s got lots of comfort and attraction with her bf and she dealing with these strong Lover feelings from you. I have more recently been a big advocate of David DeAngelos "8 personality types" it’s a real short book but it basically breaks down the categories in witch a women slots a man. It basically all comes down to 2 LOVER or PROVIDER. All the rest are merely variations. I find that the attraction a women feels between these two personalities types (witch she chooses btw) are 2 DIFFERENT feelings of attraction. Yes 2 but equally as powerful emotions of attraction. This is what I have learned from my field research. It is also a common theory within the theory that once your slotted it’s very difficult to come out of. Some crosses more so then others. For example it is very hard if not almost impossible to go from PROVIDER to LOVER. But it is said it is very possible to go from LOVER to Provider. (The later is where I think you fit in) I am in the same situation currently and have f-closed. However, it has been tricky for me as well, as in transition there is a risk I believe in losing her altogether. I think the question just gets posed to herself after a while: "Why should I leave a good relationship with no problems for one that is yet very good but still more uncertain then the current one I am in" This is where the LOVER to PROVIDER category has its weakness. It a gamble but will work if it is done properly. The BF Destroy might not work here if you’ve already used it to f-close in the beginning stages. However it is still very possible.

If you get the LJBF speech, you not need to worry about your reaction. It is irrelevant at this point. However I think a mature exit is best. A simple "Hey I am disappointed, I thought you would have taken the risk? I still think you’ll regret it in the future, but I am ok with it, As long as you’re happy I am happy, and I really mean that, I would hate to see you not happy." See I found in these instances a girl might actually choose the man who lovers her most. So it is ok to express your feelings somewhat even though they may sound AFC on paper there not to her. I did this myself when she said "I am going back with my bf" I said "I understand why you made your decision, and I am disappointed, I just want you to know my feelings for you are real strong, and I feel really connected to you, but hey I guess ill just have to et use to not being around you anymore" 5 hours later I f-closed again. She even said to me "I thought everything was ok, and now that you told me how you felt I am confused again"
Just make sure you express that you are disappointed and a little sad but that your taking it like a man. It will make her doubt her decision and re-think if she did the right thing.

I believe the Girl with the bf is a real advanced game. More so that it's almost a new game in it self. High stakes Game. But I think well worth it in the end.

In the end it’s always a WAR, you choose to fight it, or you can cut your loses and run. Some of us may say I have nothing to gain from fighting this war any longer, I am pulling back.

I am still fighting my war, and I dont want to give up. I think its becasue I know I can WIN, even though there are days when I think Ive alrady lost, I take one look at her and say I have to keep fighting.

Good luck brother, let me know how this goes.

Vincent Chase
12-22-2006, 08:30 AM
You had instilled in her that you are a busy dude (DHV,) you have a life, with shit to do.

This is obviously a comfort setting, and i'm going to ASSUME you've run attraction. She's not LSE, you've given the impression of higher value and she decided to respect it.

You shouldn't have done this if you're still in attraction, but if you're in comfort, all you had to say was:

"Time well spent. *Movie moment*

...now, get out of here before I change my mind. =D"