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jdog93
02-13-2015, 04:04 PM
Hello,
There's has always been a lot of emphasis placed on "leading" women in the PUA community because dominance is something that they respond to.

So does this mean I should always be the one initiating the date plans with women or are there times when I should let the women reach out to me? To me it seems like there has to be some times where I need to go along with whatever she wants to do. If so, when should I allow this? And when should I actually pay for her?

In addition, I made some mistakes with a girl I went out with last night. I believe I tried to escalate for a kiss close too quickly and made her a little uncomfortable. That among other things didn't help. However, she still seems interested so I don't know what to think. I haven't talked to her since last night. My question is how can I control the damage I caused and actually get her out so I can see her again?

Borso
02-14-2015, 04:07 AM
Believe you should learn about the fuse theory that was presented by LS. That'd answer a lot of your questions, but most of the time you are deffo going to be the one to initiate a date. It's your job as a man to lead.

About the girl, what were those other things you mentioned?

jdog93
02-14-2015, 11:15 AM
Believe you should learn about the fuse theory that was presented by LS. That'd answer a lot of your questions, but most of the time you are deffo going to be the one to initiate a date. It's your job as a man to lead.

About the girl, what were those other things you mentioned?

Cool. I'll look into fuse theory.

Okay so in regards to the girl I feel as though I initially asked too many questions about her personal life from the get go before building the attraction. I feel as though asking personal questions is something that comes later in the qualification or comfort stage once attraction is already established. I was teasing her a lot and was making her laugh so that probably contributed to some attraction but I couldn't really figure out how to DHV effectively considering I don't know much canned material nor have constructed any of my own personalized routines.

Secondly, I don't believe I was able to do kino escalation in a smooth and fluid fashion. To me, it seemed like it could've came off as forced to her. It probably would've been perceived as being more natural if I had been using a lot of body gestures anyway as I talked but I didn't do that nearly enough.

Thirdly, although she was okay with letting me escalate, I didn't notice any other IOIs. I was doing all the touching and she wasn't reciprocating which probably wasn't a great sign. I did notice her playing with her hair but she said that was something that she always did. This didn't stop me though from prematurely jumping into asking personal questions (Qualification/Comfort Stage) because I just didn't know how else to move the conversation forward.

Fourthly, I couldn't figure out a way to smoothly transition into a kiss so I just ended up getting closer to her and began trying to do the triangular gaze tactic. She seemed uncomfortable because she did look away a couple of time. She knew I wanted to do it but she then said something along the lines of "Not the first time we meet up." I played it off as if it wasn't a big deal which may have been the only thing I did right. I ended up saying something like, "Who said I was going to do anything?" Here I hesitated and by staring at her made it clear that I wanted to do it which probably came off as needy and beta. I unintentionally made the notion of a kiss a "big deal."

Lastly, as the conversation started to die, she politely asked if I wanted to stay here or leave because it was getting late. I took that as her wanting to end the interaction for the night which I counted as another strike against me. I thought about this and came to the conclusion that I SHOULD ALWAYS BE THE ONE TO END THE DATE. It implies that I have other important things to do and that what I say goes.

Anyway, that's how I broke down the interaction to the best of my ability. So how do I handle this from here? Thanks for the feedback!

-Justin

Borso
02-15-2015, 03:26 AM
Well, all I can say is that it's great that you see where you went wrong, if anything, you learned a lot from this one, just make sure to keep the lessons in mind the next time :)

Regarding this particular one, I'd personally leave it alone and move on to the next, would be a lot of work to get it back on the right track, afterall the date went a bit weird if I understand your words well, and that's never good. Maybe break contact for a while, so she sees you're not needy and then re-initiate the interaction with something cool (there are a few threads here to help you on this one, if you need material)

But I think it's best if you wait for an advice from someone more experienced on these boards, I'm not very good yet :)

hanexs
02-16-2015, 11:16 AM
Leading a woman and dominance, is a hard thing to explain as some things are counter intuitive, and occasionally you have to play a non dominant role. I have looked at some relationships in which I have been totally dominant, and I have found it hard to find a clear theme. For example:

Sometimes in text, it is in fact the woman that is leading simply because it is understood that my level of committment is so low compared to hers, that she must make the effort. . But she knows, if she messages me, or asks when we can hook up, I'll generally reply, if she doesn't I am totally OK not talking today. This makes her work harder and establishes my dominance in the relationship. I have tried to explain this but sometimes it is counterintuitive (if she is controlling how much we talk today, how can I be dominant?)

Other times, I have interests that might not correspond with hers. I may want to go to a strip bar, even though she hates strip bars and doesnt want to come, but its understood she'll come just to please me. Or maybe a basketball game, or a nerdy movie, something that I explicitly want to do, and she knows that I will do anyway if she say's no. I reach out, "hey, wanna go see star trek this weekend? I have some buds going" and she knows, it's happening whether she wants it or not. I initiate, but theres unspoken understanding.

With physical escalation, you need to be in the frame of mind of abundance. Think about it, if you had 4 fwbs and were working on a 5th, would you care if she didn't want to kiss today? Not at all, you make your escalation, your grab her by the back of the head and pull her into you, when she say's "No", you smile, and ask the waitress for another drink or talk about your funny friend who just bought a boat. Then you put your hand on her leg, or play some footsie like it never happened. If she says no again, you smile again, and back off, content the whole time till she chases you back.

The specific questions you ask, have little to do with dominance because there are not generally hard and fast rules here.


So does this mean I should always be the one initiating the date plans with women or are there times when I should let the women reach out to me?

if you haven't built something with the woman yet, its natural for you to initiate, thats ok, if you think she might be into it, by all means initiate. Just don't react negatively if she says another time.


To me it seems like there has to be some times where I need to go along with whatever she wants to do.
Agreed. Even the most hardcore women who love being dominated, want a man who address their desires,



'If so, when should I allow this? And when should I actually pay for her?
I almost always pay for a woman on a date (if its a date). I am a gentleman, and when she is with me, she will be protected, cared for, and treated like a queen. But (big but), her role is to treat me like the king and you should present many opportunities for her to treat you that way.


Fourthly, I couldn't figure out a way to smoothly transition into a kiss so I just ended up getting closer to her and began trying to do the triangular gaze tactic. She seemed uncomfortable because she did look away a couple of time. She knew I wanted to do it but she then said something along the lines of "Not the first time we meet up." I played it off as if it wasn't a big deal which may have been the only thing I did right. I ended up saying something like, "Who said I was going to do anything?" Here I hesitated and by staring at her made it clear that I wanted to do it which probably came off as needy and beta. I unintentionally made the notion of a kiss a "big deal."


I think you did this right if you played it off as no big deal. Every woman you meet, might be a great friend, may get you a job, may introduce you to the love of your life, or maybe she'll lead to great sex or more. Don't think about the kiss. This is my frame of mind in this situation. "funny story, funny story, make her respond to something, listen, listen, joke, bug her, funny story, listen, followed by --- BAM - Kiss her" Don't think about the kiss, just do it, look her in the eyes, smile and pull her in, if she doesn't like it, go back to treating her like a friend, no harm no foul.

You can establish dominance, early on in a relationship, by just simply stating your preferences. If your going to a restaurant when you meet the hostess "we'd like a booth please". When your in a bar, "hey babe I want to grab some fresh air lets go to the patio". or "hey I love this band lets get on the dance floor". This gives her the opportunity to say "I love booths too".

jdog93
02-16-2015, 04:00 PM
Sometimes in text, it is in fact the woman that is leading simply because it is understood that my level of committment is so low compared to hers, that she must make the effort. . But she knows, if she messages me, or asks when we can hook up, I'll generally reply, if she doesn't I am totally OK not talking today. This makes her work harder and establishes my dominance in the relationship. I have tried to explain this but sometimes it is counterintuitive (if she is controlling how much we talk today, how can I be dominant?)
.

This actually makes a lot of sense to me. So in a way it's not the one who always leads the interaction (setting up a meet) that is dominant. It is the party that is perceived as having HIGHER RELATIVE VALUE to the other party that is dominant, which in turn may very well cause the party with the lower relative value to set up dates more often. That's awesome. I haven't thought about it that way before.



I almost always pay for a woman on a date (if its a date). I am a gentleman, and when she is with me, she will be protected, cared for, and treated like a queen. But (big but), her role is to treat me like the king and you should present many opportunities for her to treat you that way.
.

What are these opportunities you are talking about that would let her treat you like a king?

Thanks for the input so far!

hanexs
02-16-2015, 05:23 PM
What are these opportunities you are talking about that would let her treat you like a king?

Well, I believe what I am alluding to, can be considered the "qualification phase" by love systems. Giving the woman hoops to jump through and rewarding her when she jumps.

This can be as simple as her answering your questions; her adding to your fantasies or accepting your frames (e.g. if you bring up some fantasy where the two of you are bank robbers and in it she'd be wearing a catwoman suit, she has the opportunity to get into that frame and play with you on it; Give her opportunities to comply with your world, e.g. I give her a cute nickname (not forced, but when it comes up) and she accepts it. Her playing with you and not getting offended when you bust her chops about something (e.g. I love short women, but I have a whole library of jokes about how short they are. In my experience short women love being bugged by a taller man on a date.)

In terms of a date and physical escalation, it means rubbing her leg back when I start a footsie, or staying close when I put my arm around her on the way to the table, or at a movie or bar and my hand happens to land in her lap or leg. If you're already going on a date, this back and forth, you display your value, then give her an opportunity to display her value (in a way that pleases you).

I expect a woman to comply with the above, that doesn't mean it always happens, its just made clear that I have expectations. I hold myself in a way that she knows whether or not she is pleasing me. Sitting there looking hot, is NOT enough to please me. When these things dont go the right way (e.g. she doesn't like my nickname, she breaks my frames or takes my hand out of her lap), you don't let it phase you but you don't reward either. At some point, you just lose interest in the girls who don't play the game you want to play. I think part of the reason why this works, is that if your a guy that expects her to do more then just look hot, then you must have higher value to her.