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SLicK899
06-22-2006, 10:57 AM
i did a search on the juggler method but i couldnt find it. can someone send me a link explaining what it is?

Vapor
06-22-2006, 11:07 AM
Fairly different from Mystery Method. Mystery's format is based on A1-S3, Juggler's is based on six steps:
1 Open
2 Get Commitment (vacuum)
3 Rapport (relate and reward)
4 Gather Info (relationship status, etc.)
5 Statment of Intent (SOI)
6 Close
They don't have to be done in that order.
The emphasis he puts on is callibrating your personality rather than specific openers, DHV stories, etc. Disqualification is used but it tends to be context-specific.
Anyway, hard to learn by reading material, you basically have to work with one of there guys or someone who has. It is way less structured than MM, making it tougher to learn on your own.

TheChaos
06-22-2006, 04:24 PM
Isn't Juggler a Direct-Game based game? (mystery is indirect)

Gandalf
06-22-2006, 05:22 PM
Yes, it is direct, focused upon the art of conversation. pretty good from what i've heard. charismaarts.com is the website, if you want to check it out.

inventory0297
06-22-2006, 06:49 PM
Juggler method is more natural game. A lot of his stuff I already did before finding the community. Now I still use mostly conversational and direct methods but have incorporated some of the MM gimmicks (lock in props, spin positioning etc.)
It is like verbal judo, naturally flowing (but actively directed) conversations which force people to commit.
Direct game requires a stronger inner frame because it is, well, direct. You must be interesting but disinterested, unperturbed by what happens.
This is important in PU in general, but especially so without the safeguards built into indirect methods which by their very nature telegraph more disinterest.
Personally I find Juggler Method to be more useful for advanced PUA's because it is much less systemic and relies on being comfortable and creating conversational bounce. This takes more calibration and practice.

jackpowent
06-22-2006, 07:44 PM
what's it mean to "commit"? does that mean, investing in you so that they follow you to a venue change?
j

socialsecurity
06-22-2006, 07:47 PM
I use Juggler method but AFAIK there isn't a Juggler board out there, so this and FS are the next best thing.
While it does require more calibration, I've had much more success with Juggler method than with MM because it can extenuate an already existing skillset as opposed to recommending you to use canned material. For me, it feels infinitely more natural and doesn’t require me to become an entertainer.
Really though, I think each method could compliment each other. There is no mandate that you have to use routines in MM, so really the stages that generally might be canned could actually be ‘natural’ like juggler method. For instance, while in A1 instead of using an opinion opener on a fictitious gf, you could ask a girl a question about… an ugly dog that’s across the park or… whether a Mai Tai or a Bloody Mary is manlier.

socialsecurity
06-22-2006, 07:58 PM
what's it mean to "commit"? does that mean, investing in you so that they follow you to a venue change?
j
The idea in making a target "commit" is that the more a women speaks, the more she has invested into an interaction. The more she invests, the less likely she is to leave prematurely.
Generally, to get a target to commit you ask an open-ended question to get her talking. Once you've asked an open-ended question she's more or less forced into giving a "good" answer. If she tries to give a lousy (short) answer, you say "how?" or "why?" or whatever else fits in. The example juggler gives is "How do you get your hair so purple?" Girls give lousy answers to strangers so she says "I dye it." Then you say "But how, I'm interested?" Then she goes on to explain that she breaks markers in half with 10 other chemicals...
Once she has talked for a while, she has "commited" to the interaction.

Vapor
06-23-2006, 09:18 AM
Isn't Juggler a Direct-Game based game? (mystery is indirect)
Not exactly, not in the sense that BadBoy is direct.
You are projecting a warm, friendly vibe, without sexual interest. You reveal that later on. In that sense JM is indirect, but you also do not insist she show interest before you do. So, kind of a hybrid.

simon
06-23-2006, 10:41 AM
I think it's more direct then indirect, direct ist not just "you're beautiful and I wanna get to know you".

Vapor
06-23-2006, 11:36 AM
I think it's more direct then indirect, direct ist not just "you're beautiful and I wanna get to know you".
Pickup 101 had a CD about this that was pretty good. They argue there are two compenents to indirect vs. direct. The first is how you approach the target, the other is how you display sexual interest.
For example. Classic MM is indirect. You aren't approaching the target at all, you're talking to other people. You also aren't displaying any sexual interest until she shows it first (A2 precedes A3). However, suppose you approach a set, start talking to the obstacles, and when the target interjects you banter with her, accuse her of hitting on you, whatever. That is not exactly indirect, because everybody knows who you are flirting with. That, it could be argued, is direct gaming her.
On the flip side, if I approach a woman by herself, that's generally considered direct. But if I don't show any sexual interest, it's not quite the same. I am talking to her the same way I might talk to a guy or little old lady. She's not sure I am interested until we relate to each other in some way, and I make an SOI at a high point. If we never get to that point, I still haven't hit on her, I'm just a friendly guy who's chatty. By that definition, you could argue I'm doing indirect game since I am avoiding rejection.
Contrast that with BadBoy approach or PU101's Movie Moment technique, and you are very, very obviously hitting on this woman. No argument that it's not direct.

simon
06-23-2006, 02:05 PM
However, suppose you approach a set, start talking to the obstacles, and when the target interjects you banter with her, accuse her of hitting on you, whatever. That is not exactly indirect, because everybody knows who you are flirting with. That, it could be argued, is direct gaming her.
For me, that's still kinda indirect. I can't see 100% indirect, showing 0% interest, sexual interest or whatever working.
Direct method in my eyes is doing what you want to do, without excusing yourself, showing interest from the scratch, get instant attraction, no need to DHV (why call this DHV? For me it's showing that you're a cool guy, that's it). Doing WHAT YOU WANT, no real structure, just basics. Mostly inner game.

Satyre
06-23-2006, 07:57 PM
I've dabbled in Juggler's stuff, it's a good addition to MM; you have to be able to be flexible in order to fit the situation.

Youngin
06-23-2006, 08:14 PM
There is a lot to learn from the Juggler method, it is more for the naturals rather than the AFCs. I almost always use SOIs now and instead of elliciting values I like the mindset that I am the prize, so I keep my own values but tell her ways that she can become part of my frame.
It isn't easy to find an outline of jugglers method. Basically I just have a compilation of about 100 pages of his posts.

rangler
06-23-2006, 09:21 PM
I bought Juggler's eBook, thought it was pretty good. Though it definitely is less clear at defining his method compared to the VAH.
From what I understand about Juggler Method:
Your initial opener doesnt matter, you could say anything as long as you have a warm vibe and show no sexual interest. Take her response, even if it is negative as a form of commitment. Your response to her response is important and improvised, it hooks her into the conversation. Then you follow the pattern of: Basically do anything to get her to respond to you positively, then use her response to justify going to the next level.
When she gives you lemons you make lemonade. Even shit tests are a sign of interest on her part. And, pretty much everything is a shit test if you don't get the response your looking for.
For this to work you have to have good social intuition, that's why MM is better suited for guys who need to work on their core social skills first. The use of canned material in MM is just one example of how MM assists in building core social skills.
Cheers.

socialsecurity
06-23-2006, 09:49 PM
The use of canned material in MM is just one example of how MM assists in building core social skills.

How does using someone elses material assist in building your social skills? Using something someone else has said as your own is a total crutch for developing your own social skills.

rangler
06-23-2006, 10:30 PM
It allows you to focus on things like: Monitor your body language and energy level. Correct your tonality. Analyze your set. Keep track of where on the M3 model you are. And a million other things that get forgotten when whats running through your head is "What the hell am I going to say." Social Intelligence is more that what is said because only 7% of what you communicate is words. Canned Material is a helpfull tool, you are supposed to outgrow it or make unique material eventually when you get comfortable.

Vapor
06-24-2006, 01:52 PM
Direct method in my eyes is doing what you want to do, without excusing yourself, showing interest from the scratch
I agree, but Juggler Method does not do this.

Vapor
06-24-2006, 01:56 PM
How does using someone elses material assist in building your social skills? Using something someone else has said as your own is a total crutch for developing your own social skills.
No it isn't. It's a proven method for developing social skills. It's been proven so many times over that people who doubt it haven't done their homework or put in field time testing it.

Cape
06-24-2006, 11:46 PM
IMO, Juggler Method smells of tryhard. It encourages you to go low energy, open with stuff like "Hay gais can I show you sum magicks? Kay close your eyes" *grabs girl and runs*.
again, that's all IMO. I'm aggressive against juggler method because they rip a bit from mystery's research and slap Juggler in front of it (i.e. Juggler's 90-10 theory)

socialsecurity
06-25-2006, 12:48 PM
IMO, Juggler Method smells of tryhard. It encourages you to go low energy, open with stuff like "Hay gais can I show you sum magicks? Kay close your eyes" *grabs girl and runs*.

Negative. Juggler method encourages you to match/slightly exceed the engergy of the set.
Not sure what that second part is about.


again, that's all IMO. I'm aggressive against juggler method because they rip a bit from mystery's research and slap Juggler in front of it (i.e. Juggler's 90-10 theory)
The only thing that JM and MM share in common is that they both have an open and close. Outside of that virtually everything is different. As far as the 90-10 theory, it's not really used now. The goal is 50-50 from the start.

Cape
06-25-2006, 12:56 PM
Ugh, I know I'm getting rusty when I get Juggler confused with TD. TD is a tryhard, Juggler is the witty one. It was blurring but now I remember. Ignore my previous comments :D

socialsecurity
06-25-2006, 01:52 PM
Roger. No worries.
I think most everyone does agree that despite some decent theory, Durden is a douche bag.