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View Full Version : Trouble getting from A2 to A3?



Smoothlatinkid
06-05-2006, 01:23 AM
Posting this here, but it could equally go in FRs.
A sticking point I've been having is A2 to A3. For example, tonight, I'm at a club and I charm the target's obstacle/obstacles. I neg my target--an HB7 little dark-haired beauty with a killer ass.
ME: Your voice sounds exactly like a cartoon character--it's so cute!
Anyway, after they get past the neg, I go into the cheating boyfriend routine (which is loaded with DHV spikes.) My BL is that I'm turned away from her, ignoring, but I see she's trying to be involved. I finish my story, but I'm not getting IOIs.
My target goes to the restroom, and that's almost the last I see of her. Later on, I'm talking to her friend at the bar, and she comes up to the bar, but not really close enough to call it a proximity IOI--but who knows. I lean over and ask her "So what's your story?"
She shrugs...then nothing. Then her friends are leaving and she moves off.
I never got the IOIs. I suppose that's why.
This happens a lot....the girls tend to think I'm ignoring them, not interested, and often they move off. Am I missing something?
I'm really trying to concentrate on NOTICING IOIs...instead of just assuming I got them. Quite often, I jump into A3--as I did above--and it's not effective, because you can't qualify someone that isn't truly attracted. And it's funny, because I notice myself wanting to be complimentary, or overly flirtatious like my old AFC self would be...and I'm stuck.
Tonight I also gamed this hostess--HB7 Asian--at this hot restaurant I go to all the time. Typical C/F stuff. "maybe you'll see me tomorrow...if you're lucky." It's the TRANSITION....making them attracted after the c/f, making sure I have those three IOIs, that seems to be my sticking point. Because often, I ignore them after, so as not to chase or supplicate.
(By the way, I'm in shape, and I'm handsome. If someone were to play me in a movie, it would be John Cusack. A LATIN John Cusack.)
Another example. A hostess--HB7.5 Miami that works at this place I frequent...I negged her hard to start. Sooner than later she started coming up to me at the restaurant (where she saw me with many other chicks.) I take her number. She asks me for a hug---then asks me for a REAL hug.
Part of me always thinks they are throwing false IOIs, just to prove that they can get me (because I'm not all over them like most men.) So I ignore them.
This afternoon, I decide to text the hostess.
ME: Having sangria at ..... with HB9 Foxy Brown (my pivot). Come by and tag along.
HER: At an acting class till 6pm. What's up later?
ME: Call me later.
She doesn't call.
So I'm always at an impasse. It's such a judgement call; when to show interest, when not to. I try to err on the side of NOT....
So....suggestions, brothers?

Confidence
06-05-2006, 04:36 AM
I'd have to watch you in the field and see what you would rate a 7. But I noticed two things. One is that NEG's are really only supposed to be used on 9-10's because they are so completely used to having nothing but positive reactions from men that it throws them for a loop. When you use it on woman lower than that they tend to think you're an asshole.
Also I think you have to learn the art of keeping them interested just before they lose interest and start thinking of something else. It's the cat theory: If you just left the feather go the cats will stop chasing it. The same is true if that feather is out of their reach they'll get feed up with being able to get it. You need to keep it at just the right balance and that's hard try for a week or two acting a little more interested and see where that gets you. If it doesn't work just go back to what you were doing.
About that text message you got today from her. Remember that pretty girls ALWAYS have options (An ugly little fact I learned not to long ago) so be the BEST option. If she says she can't make it don't even act phased as it's no big deal. I personally give a woman three chances to make a date if they flake all three times I don't even next them I just delete their number from my phone. Also always try to call them as you can get through the rapport stage a lot sooner: it's much easier and safer (remember woman need to feel safe before they will go any where with you) to talk to a guy over the phone then to meet him face to face.
Oh also one other thing. I don't know how tight your game is or your DHV but you might be doing yourself a very bad thing by showing your DHV to lower girls because they may disqualify themselves right off the bat saying that they could never have you because you're too cool for them and "Out of their league." If your going to show DHV I would suggest doing it in such a way that you raise both of your values so that she feels worthy to be around you. I think there is a post on it in the Best of forums.
Wow that's a lot more then I intended to write haha hope that helps.
~Confidence

Hatman
06-05-2006, 06:52 AM
How long were you spending in A2? And what was your body language, energy and vocal projections like?
Heres some suggestions for you:
1. make your A2 more tight. Your material DHV's should be leading to IOI's or end up with IOI's. If your A2 is tight, you should always get IOI's. Several ways to do this:
2. Make sure your A2 is entertaining and stimulating
3. make sure your A2 has unexpected twists. The material should be stuff she's never heard of before. This will also help to spark curiosity.
4. Make sure your body placement within set is right. Only keep your back to an HB 7 if she has high ATTRACTING POWER ie. she has been hit on loads of times that night. Otherwise, you can actually engage both girls with a best friends tests to disable the obstacle. then engage the target. I would also include here correcting any body language and vocal projection errors
5. have a look at the footnote which explains how to make your A2 tighter. You can use the model given as an example of how to structure your own material.
regards

Smoothlatinkid
06-05-2006, 11:17 AM
Confidence---thanks for the reply. I will show a little bit more interest over the next week and see what happens.
Hatman--your footnote posts are excellent.
My first routine is generally Cheating Boyfriend, with DHV spikes added. It runs for about two minutes...I'm actually going to time it today.
I asked the girls if they've ever been cheated on. They always say yes. Then I launch into it. I make the cheated-on girl an ex that I'm still friends with (preselection.) I add in that once the boyfriend flips out, she locks herself in the bathroom and calls me (protector of loved ones.) I call my boys--because they're ready to roll with me in a second (tribal leader).
I also add in that on the same day this happened, I'm supposed to hang with my friend ,this girl who's only in town for one night for a photo shoot (preselection), but I can't leave my friend, the cheated-on girl, alone. So I call another girl that's my friend (sometimes I say another ex), to spend the night with her. I let them know that these girls don't know each other, but the girl will do anything for me (I'm trying to combine protector of loved ones, tribal leader, and preselection with this one.)
Anyway, it generally takes at least two minutes. Now generally, I get maybe one IOI out of this. It all depends...if this is on a day 2, it works like a charm. On a cold approach, not as much.
Sometimes I jump into the spells routine. Or I do the 5 questions game, or Valentines Day (another longer routine.)
My body language...I'm generally ignoring the target, except for the neg. My vocal projection is strong. But I almost think I project that I TOTALLY don't like her (because I'm slightly turned away from her), and I've negged her--so that when I try to extract or talk to her later, she's not trying to hear me. It's almost like...payback on her part---for ignoring and negging her.
(NOTE: When the IOIs have been very overt and obvious, I'm great at extracting and qualifying.)
I think I'm going to experiment with making the routines shorter...perhaps because of their length, I'm coming off as try-hard. (I suppose I'm using an ELABORATED DHV story, as opposed to just just stating it.
I will also try to include the target a little more. I kinda go overboard with the active disinterest.
Any other suggestions would be great---and thanks again.

Cedar
06-06-2006, 11:23 AM
My first routine is generally Cheating Boyfriend, with DHV spikes added. It runs for about two minutes...I'm actually going to time it today.
Stop using personal routines if your delivery is off. And don't put DHV spikes in the opener. Not sure what the official line is, but none of the published material does this. It comes off try hard and braggart right off. You want as neutral a story as possible. After they gain some interest, DHV away.

...the cheated-on girl an ex that I'm still friends with (preselection.)...
Yes and no. Pre selection doesn't mean you fuck a lot of girls. It means a lot of girls WANT to fuck you. Mention she's hot and she's in love with you. But you think of her more like a sister. 'Sure, she's hot, but...I dunno...she's like my little sister.'

...I add in that once the boyfriend flips out,
Do you really want to walk up to girls and say 'Hi. I can hurt you.' No. No you don't. Don't bring this up.

...she locks herself in the bathroom and calls me (protector of loved ones.) I call my boys--because they're ready to roll with me in a second (tribal leader).
Try hard alert. Try hard alert. Too much drama.

I also add in that on the same day this happened, I'm supposed to hang with my friend ,this girl who's only in town for one night for a photo shoot (preselection), but I can't leave my friend, the cheated-on girl, alone. So I call another girl that's my friend (sometimes I say another ex), to spend the night with her. I let them know that these girls don't know each other, but the girl will do anything for me (I'm trying to combine protector of loved ones, tribal leader, and preselection with this one.)
You're trying too hard. Drop the DHv stories and use stock until its working for you.

Sy
06-06-2006, 11:42 AM
I'd say frame also has a major part to play. Remember you are qualifying to find out if this girl is cool enough to be around you. I find if A2 has gone well I have a natural curiosity about the girl and will want to know about her... I'll prep in A1 (depending on the opener) with "you guys are nuts, how could anyone hang out with you... Ok I have to tell you about..." Then "Ok so tell me you HATE chavs right? I couldn't be around a chav girl" (Chav is basically slang for horrible/cheap looking girl with a bad attitude.)

Smoothlatinkid
06-06-2006, 12:47 PM
Thanks, guys. Points taken.
I should mention that the routine isn't my opener. I use it A) in A2, after I've hit the social hook point, and B) on day 2's, as more of a "this was MY crazy weekend."
But I agree, it is coming off as tryhard. I will make the adjustments. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Jester
06-07-2006, 01:51 AM
Personally I disagree with using DHV spiked stories in A2 I think that come off try hard as Cedar pointed out. In my experience its never worked for me.
I simply rely on the other DHV points ie BL, EC, Neg, Pivots, Social Proof to get my IOIs.
At the most I might tell a story of something funny that has happened in my life recently that is congruent with me, but other than that I rely on the above.

Ken
06-07-2006, 04:14 AM
Personally I disagree with using DHV spiked stories in A2 I think that come off try hard as Cedar pointed out. In my experience its never worked for me.
I simply rely on the other DHV points ie BL, EC, Neg, Pivots, Social Proof to get my IOIs.
At the most I might tell a story of something funny that has happened in my life recently that is congruent with me, but other than that I rely on the above.
Cedar actually said that you he didn't recommend putting DHV spikes in an OPENER(a1), in a2 DHV's are essential. Your body language, EC, Pivots, Social Proof, etc.. ARE DHV's but stories with embedded DHV spikes are still valid DHV's. There is nothing wrong with them. Top guys in the field STILL USE DHV stories while having pivots, good BL, EC, negs, and social proof. It's all in the delivery of the material that tells you if it comes off try hard or not. NOT in telling stories with DHV spikes.

Bombardier
06-07-2006, 10:58 AM
Is there a dictionary somewhere for all the codewords? What on earth is a DHV and an A2?

Cedar
06-07-2006, 11:09 AM
Is there a dictionary somewhere for all the codewords? What on earth is a DHV and an A2?
Hit the button entitled FAQ in the upper left hand corner of the page.

Tenmagnet
06-07-2006, 06:28 PM
You are doing something wrong in your A2 phase. It may have something to do with your delivery, or it may be this...


I asked the girls if they've ever been cheated on. They always say yes. Then I launch into it. I make the cheated-on girl an ex that I'm still friends with (preselection.) I add in that once the boyfriend flips out, she locks herself in the bathroom and calls me (protector of loved ones.) I call my boys--because they're ready to roll with me in a second (tribal leader).
I also add in that on the same day this happened, I'm supposed to hang with my friend ,this girl who's only in town for one night for a photo shoot (preselection), but I can't leave my friend, the cheated-on girl, alone. So I call another girl that's my friend (sometimes I say another ex), to spend the night with her. I let them know that these girls don't know each other, but the girl will do anything for me (I'm trying to combine protector of loved ones, tribal leader, and preselection with this one.)
Anyway, it generally takes at least two minutes. Now generally, I get maybe one IOI out of this. It all depends...if this is on a day 2, it works like a charm. On a cold approach, not as much.

This routine is really bad.... let me explain why.
1 - There are big DLV's in it. The fact that you are helping your ex-gf, who was cheated on by another guy does NOT make you look cool. Your "protector of loved ones" DHV is actually a "protector of former loved ones, who (btw) ditched you for a player". Your "preselection" DHV comes off as "preselected by a needy girl who (btw) ditched you for a player".
2 - You try to stack too many DHVs together, and you probably come off really try hard.

Smoothlatinkid
06-07-2006, 07:20 PM
Agreed---thanks, Tenmagnet.
The routine was originally Swinggcat's. I made it an ex-gf and added all the now-apparently-unnecessary-and-most-likely-hurtful DHV spikes. I will remove them and try some of the other suggestions.
I'm actually going to try to create some of my own routines soon and cycle them in with the canned ones I have. Will keep you guys posted on my progress. And thanks again.