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Hypnovibe
05-31-2006, 10:32 AM
I have noticed that the hot girls or the confident girls tend to react very favorable to negs, cocky funny, and qualification. The stuff is gold with them. HOWEVER I have also found that a woman 7 or under tends to be very turned off by those same techniques **ON AVERAGE** and they tend to respond much better to a laid back chill down to earth guy who is very subtle and easygoing and even takes a conditional interest in her. Actual "techniques" for negging, playing hard to get, qualifying ect tend to bomb with these girls ON AVERAGE. Has anyone else noticed this? If you have not noticed this do you think that perhaps It is a sticking point with my game? If so what could I do to work on this? Feel free to post your own comments as to the theory behind calibrating to a woman who is reacting unfavorably and not biting with some of the techniques meant to display disinterest or hard to get.

MG1
05-31-2006, 10:39 AM
I noticed this as well. When I bust balls and tease women that are 5s and 6s that I get bad responses most of the time. The thing is I don't care because I don't want to game 5s and 6s.
Since I started to do the newbie mission and get good at A2, I find I can get 8s and 9s attracted to me(I still have problems with timebridging and C1) its the 5s thru 7s that I have the most trouble with because my new attitude does not sit well with them. I would'nt worry about it.

EZRyder
05-31-2006, 10:46 AM
Thats very true. Negs, FDQs, etc are all designed to lower the targets perceived social value of herself in relation to you. If the target does not perceive herself as already having higher social value than you, then you need not lower it. That just serves to make you look out of her leauge.
EG:
PUA: OMG your nose wiggles when you talk, its so quaint.
HB10: (why does this guy not like me?)
OR
PUA: OMG your nose wiggles when you talk, its so quaint
HB7 and below: (Oh, i guess he's not interested...NEXT)
Direct method works way better with girls who already have a perceived lower social value than you. This is because direct method (Badboy, Shark) assumes that you are established already as the prize. You have naturally DHVed enough that you dont need to lower her.
Its like with indirect being used on an HB10, you start out with less social value. Lets look at social value on a scale of 1-10. She perceives herself as a 10 and you as say a 7. You neg, disqualify, etc and bring her down to an 8. You DHV to bring yourself up to a 9. You have her qualify to bring herself back up to a 9. Then you're equal.
With an HB7-, she goes into the situation thinking of herself as a 7-, and you as an 8 or 9. At that point, DHV is less important, and negging should be little to none. If there's more than like a 4 point difference, then the lower party will accept defeat. You have to find the balance. You go in, you dhv a little, and then some bait hook reel release. Give her the chance to raise herself to an 8 or 9. Maybe FDQ a little on the opener just because she is a girl and girls naturally assume that guys that are coming to talk to her are hitting on her, but even so, this might excite her a little bit.
Indirect method is a great way to get girls who think they have higher value than you. Direct method is a great way to get girls who dont think they have higher value than you. Really though, they're not two different methods, they're just different calibrations. M3 still applies, but F2M attraction is assumed. Its all about tweaking.
Thoughts?

Dr. Zeus
05-31-2006, 10:49 AM
The purpose of the neg is to lower the girl's social value in order to build it back up again. If you're dealing with a 7, you don't need to do this. You can go ahead with more direct style game.
But I've noticed the larger the 7's set is, the easier you can get away with negging her. Probably because her large group of friends is temporarily increasing her social value.

Hypnovibe
05-31-2006, 11:11 AM
I noticed this as well. When I bust balls and tease women that are 5s and 6s that I get bad responses most of the time. The thing is I don't care because I don't want to game 5s and 6s.
Since I started to do the newbie mission and get good at A2, I find I can get 8s and 9s attracted to me(I still have problems with timebridging and C1) its the 5s thru 7s that I have the most trouble with because my new attitude does not sit well with them. I would'nt worry about it.
I agree with what you say to a degree but I feel like social networking and social status is very very important to getting the hotter girls. I have found on many occasions that I will get myself blown out for using some technique on a 5-7 and having her think I am an asshole...so I think its very very important to understand how to handle these girls even if they are not who I really want. I want to be the stand up guy with social value in all circumstances not just with 8-10's and sometimes a woman that I think is a 8 thinks she is a 6...so I guess my big question is if a woman is not reacting favorably to a technique and I have overstepped my bounds...what is a good way to recover without looking needy weak or DLV?
Also I am an somewhat good looking guy (7??). I got an 8 on hotornot and while I certainly don't think I can get by with 7-10's on just looks and a laid back chill friendly attitude...I do think that with some girls they can get intimidated by me. I definately naturally neg a lot without realizing until after the fact and I also have a naturally indifferent vibe to me. I also have a sort of leather jacket type look to me so girls assume I am a handful to start with and tend to be ready for it.

Hypnovibe
05-31-2006, 11:19 AM
I forgot to also mention that my big sticking point that I am finding is that if I use the technique I can get instant attraction from some and not so favorable a responce from most...however when I try to tone it down I seem to get LJBFed way too much...I guess my problem throughout this whole experience has been calibration and finding that sweet zone....and no I cant afford AM.

Jester
05-31-2006, 06:25 PM
MM is designed for girls that are 8 or above. The reason that it works so well is that its different (key word different) to what everyone else is doing.
Dr Zeus is right on track for what a neg is used for, I think that you are using it incorrectly and more because you think that its essential. You need to calibrate when you need to use it and when you dont. After time you will begin to be able to read the BL and tone in her voice to see if you need to neg her or not. Try focusing on reading the HB to see if she needs to be negged or not.
When you are qualifying you are actually taking an active interest in her - thats what this stage is meant for. Im thinking that you might be qualifying incorrectly if its bombing or maybe using the Hook bait reel release too hard.

Hypnovibe
06-01-2006, 07:16 AM
Thats very true. Negs, FDQs, etc are all designed to lower the targets perceived social value of herself in relation to you. If the target does not perceive herself as already having higher social value than you, then you need not lower it. That just serves to make you look out of her leauge.
EG:
PUA: OMG your nose wiggles when you talk, its so quaint.
HB10: (why does this guy not like me?)
OR
PUA: OMG your nose wiggles when you talk, its so quaint
HB7 and below: (Oh, i guess he's not interested...NEXT)
Direct method works way better with girls who already have a perceived lower social value than you. This is because direct method (Badboy, Shark) assumes that you are established already as the prize. You have naturally DHVed enough that you dont need to lower her.
Its like with indirect being used on an HB10, you start out with less social value. Lets look at social value on a scale of 1-10. She perceives herself as a 10 and you as say a 7. You neg, disqualify, etc and bring her down to an 8. You DHV to bring yourself up to a 9. You have her qualify to bring herself back up to a 9. Then you're equal.
With an HB7-, she goes into the situation thinking of herself as a 7-, and you as an 8 or 9. At that point, DHV is less important, and negging should be little to none. If there's more than like a 4 point difference, then the lower party will accept defeat. You have to find the balance. You go in, you dhv a little, and then some bait hook reel release. Give her the chance to raise herself to an 8 or 9. Maybe FDQ a little on the opener just because she is a girl and girls naturally assume that guys that are coming to talk to her are hitting on her, but even so, this might excite her a little bit.
Indirect method is a great way to get girls who think they have higher value than you. Direct method is a great way to get girls who dont think they have higher value than you. Really though, they're not two different methods, they're just different calibrations. M3 still applies, but F2M attraction is assumed. Its all about tweaking.
Thoughts?
This is great advice...thanks man. Jester I have the mystery book...maybe I should read it again cause I thought qualifying was asking questions to make her earn me liking her...in other words there is no free pass...for example:
Me: Can you cook?
Her: Well yea
Me: Cool...what can you cook...toast or what?
I realize that I have to start showing interest here if she qualifies herself to me but I dont think I am suppose to just start being her biggest fan either. right??

Jester
06-01-2006, 01:05 PM
This is great advice...thanks man. Jester I have the mystery book...maybe I should read it again cause I thought qualifying was asking questions to make her earn me liking her...in other words there is no free pass...for example:
Me: Can you cook?
Her: Well yea
Me: Cool...what can you cook...toast or what?
I realize that I have to start showing interest here if she qualifies herself to me but I dont think I am suppose to just start being her biggest fan either. right??
A1 = Open
A2 = Female to Male interest
A3 = Male to Female interest Meaning that its now YOUR job to show your interest in her, but more importantly give REASON for your interest - as you put it, make her earn it. Hence the qualifying and probing questions. The purpose of the hook bait reel release thoery is because it releases the uncomfortable situation that can arise when people give compliments, and makes it like your not her biggest fan. It takes her on a rollercoaster ride of emotions from having a compliment and then having it ripped away from her and then being pushed away, she wants the compliment back so she comes running. It keeps the 'carrot dangling in front of the donkey'
Hoop theory that is brought in at the A3 stage is not actually a qualifying tool, its a compliance testing tool that lets you know how your going in your game and gives you an opportunity to pump it up abit more.
Before you can really truely do this you need to know what is important to you and what the values are that you want, then you will be able to qualify properly. Im suspecting that your asking questions that arent really all that important to you, so it wont be congruent with you. She will smell this like its a steaming shit.
I have done a couple of other threads/posts on this topic, under elicting values you may find this some use.

darylrodney
06-01-2006, 02:51 PM
All I do, which has made me more successful is to treat 5s to 7s like AFC. Remember when you were AFCs, the girls chose you. You did not choose them. It is the same for them. Too much Neg + cocky Comedy is like an AFC trying to pick up Carmen Electra. So we kinda have a catch twenty two, but all you have to do is start with a Comfort comment, then quickly, once she knows your itnerested, switch to A2. But you need to constanly shift between the two.
Hope that helps
D

Jester
06-01-2006, 03:00 PM
Too much Neg + cocky Comedy > Carmen Electra. So we kinda have a catch twenty two, but all you have to do is start with a Comfort comment, then quickly, once she knows your itnerested, switch to A2. But you need to constanly shift between the two.
I have no idea what your trying to say here, can you please clarify what you mean by a Carmen Electra? Last time I checked she was pretty dam hot so I dont see whats bad about that when too much cocky funny is bad. Also I dont understand what YOUR catch 22 is??
But I know that I disagree that you constantly go back and forth. Yes you can go back and forth through stage to merge them ie A2, A3, A2, A3, A3, A3... BUt not from C1/2 back to A2. Thats too far back, always progress.

darylrodney
06-01-2006, 03:06 PM
well i think the catch twenty two is that two many negs then she thinks your too good for her. Too direct - wussy AFC
D

Hypnovibe
06-02-2006, 05:05 AM
Ok guys-
I have been at this for several months and while I dont consistantly go out and sarge I do consistantly practice community knowledge on women. I think what D is tryin to say is its safer to establish some rapport first before going for negs cocky/funny or any other low percentage high yield tactics. Of course if she starts it...its on...but to hold back for a little and establish yourself as not superhuman first and then turn up the volume on her. Of course other methods of DHV still apply asap. Anyone else feel this is good interpretation of how to deal with 5-7's?

Hatman
06-02-2006, 06:20 AM
your damn right here. you need to be very careful when talking to a girl. you need to size her up, her social experience and her understanding of social interaction very quickly.
i still use my standard a2 DHV material, but i tone it down to suit the person. if i was gaming an 8+, i would turn a2 into a hardcore cocky-funny, neg filled rollercoaster of a ride to attraction, otherwise i just tone it down by cutting out a lot of negs etc.
darn..........another thing i want to add, even if a woman is an 8+, sometimes a hardcore A2 doesn't work....darn i've lost some amazing targets through my previous lack of calibration here. dont use looks as your guide. if the target seems very nice and talkative, and has low ATTRACTING POWER (which is different from looks - see my guide to negs below for more info), then cut your a2 to be less hardcore
always judge a woman by her social experience, not by her looks
regards

simon
06-02-2006, 03:59 PM
Really though, they're not two different methods, they're just different calibrations. M3 still applies, but F2M attraction is assumed. Its all about tweaking.
Is this true? Can we really fit direct game into the M3 model? Any other opinions on that?

Hypnovibe
06-03-2006, 06:01 AM
Is this true? Can we really fit direct game into the M3 model? Any other opinions on that?
I think that to become a master of pickup you need to learn when to apply direct and when to apply indirect. The MP3 model is the bible for INDIRECT METHOD. However Juggler teaches a similar format that is more of a DIRECT method. Pickup 101 tends to teach a somewhat direct method. Its all about calibration.

EZRyder
06-03-2006, 02:26 PM
Just checking back in. Yes direct does follow M3. It just assumes certain phases, I.E. A2. By using body language and other factors, you create attraction. BL, voice tone, etc. DHV for you so you dont tell dhv stories. This higher value is assumed before the interaction begins, so instead of negging and showing disinterest, you just go straight into A3 and rapport.
BTW Badboy is direct. Juggler is not really, but he's closer to direct than MM.
Basically, M3 is a model that all successful seduction follows. Its not a model for indirect seduction, its a model for all seduction, and mystery just happens to teach indirect as it applies to the model.

Hypnovibe
06-06-2006, 07:22 AM
Just checking back in. Yes direct does follow M3. It just assumes certain phases, I.E. A2. By using body language and other factors, you create attraction. BL, voice tone, etc. DHV for you so you dont tell dhv stories. This higher value is assumed before the interaction begins, so instead of negging and showing disinterest, you just go straight into A3 and rapport.
BTW Badboy is direct. Juggler is not really, but he's closer to direct than MM.
Basically, M3 is a model that all successful seduction follows. Its not a model for indirect seduction, its a model for all seduction, and mystery just happens to teach indirect as it applies to the model.
I gotta disagree with you dude. The whole concept of the MP3 model is indirect and slowly going to direct. The whole idea is that in the beginning your just two people talking and sharing your values and you do and say things that make her warm up to you and then she does the same and warms you up to her and it just happens that you make a connection and eventually move into comfort where you become more direct in your interest. This is a very different concept then someone like Juggler who assumes that she is attractive and says not to be merky and be straightforward with your interest but to keep it in doubt with playful teasing and push/pull. The difference between indirect and direct is that in direct you assume attraction and you dont try to hide the fact that your flirting and treating her like a woman who you see as a sexual being. The Mystery Method says you start out not even facing her and she is just another person...you could be talking to anybody...and you slowly drag her into your reality...hook her...get her wanting you to want her and then run A3. I think your a bit confused dude.

simon
06-06-2006, 12:02 PM
But are you REALLY REALLY beeing/playing disinterested in A2? I mean, negs, and busting on her for example, are still a way of FLIRTING in my mind. Showing some interest!?

MDS
06-06-2006, 12:40 PM
c&f is designed to build attraction and dhv. it'll build attraction in hb1 and in hb10. keep in mind that we are not dealing with ugs. every hb needs to feel that your value is higher than hers or why would she want you. now you need to comunicate that you see something in her that you like, but she still needs to qulify herself to you. and don't forget to be funny, not just cocky.

EZRyder
06-06-2006, 01:03 PM
The M3 model is a model of all successful attraction. Its not so much a formula for indirect method, but a model for all methods. Direct just has a different way of filling in A2. Indirect uses negs and DHV to create F2M attraction. Direct uses pure BL and DHV to do the same thing. A2 is just F2M attraction and Mystery Method, an indirect method, creates that using indirect method techniques (negs, busting, C/F etc) Direct creates that attraction without being indirect. That doesnt change the fact that direct method can follow the same route.
Direct Game: Open directly (still opening)
Use BL and voice tonality to DHV and maybe 1 or 2 DHV stories
Qualify to justify further M2F attraction
That sounds alot like A1 A2 and A3 to me, its just that what fills in the blanks is way more direct. M3 model is just labels for the different phases that all sexual relationships go through. Maybe i'm just not explaining this well enough.

simon
06-06-2006, 01:27 PM
The thing about direct is, that it's not really a method.

Hypnovibe
06-07-2006, 08:37 AM
The M3 model is a model of all successful attraction. Its not so much a formula for indirect method, but a model for all methods. Direct just has a different way of filling in A2. Indirect uses negs and DHV to create F2M attraction. Direct uses pure BL and DHV to do the same thing. A2 is just F2M attraction and Mystery Method, an indirect method, creates that using indirect method techniques (negs, busting, C/F etc) Direct creates that attraction without being indirect. That doesnt change the fact that direct method can follow the same route.
Direct Game: Open directly (still opening)
Use BL and voice tonality to DHV and maybe 1 or 2 DHV stories
Qualify to justify further M2F attraction
That sounds alot like A1 A2 and A3 to me, its just that what fills in the blanks is way more direct. M3 model is just labels for the different phases that all sexual relationships go through. Maybe i'm just not explaining this well enough.
Direct game is showing your interest in a women instead of hiding your cards. A2 and A3 are mostly hiding your cards the way the handbook teaches it. In A3 you finally begin to start to show an interest in her as a woman but its because of certain traites about her as a person. Direct game is more that of the charmer...the flirty guy who just is interested in her sexuality...interested in her as a women and there are plenty of methods for direct game. This conversation has begun to bore me because it is obvious that I am attempting to explain something that there is a vast amount of information on elsewhere that could clear this up for you guys...and besides...I think at one point this thread was about a question that I had...I cant even remember the question at this point though. lol. I will just enclose by saying that if you want a direct method version of the Mystery Method it would be that you A1 with a direct method not an opinion or something and you assume A2 (obviously you want to be dressed well with good bodylanguage and be as interesting as you can)...skip A3 and move to comfort. With direct your already interested in her as a woman.

Hypnovibe
06-07-2006, 08:59 AM
c&f is designed to build attraction and dhv. it'll build attraction in hb1 and in hb10. keep in mind that we are not dealing with ugs. every hb needs to feel that your value is higher than hers or why would she want you. now you need to comunicate that you see something in her that you like, but she still needs to qulify herself to you. and don't forget to be funny, not just cocky.
This is not about dealing with ugs...this is about dealing with descent looking or cute girls (7's) that are still very attractive to me....without turning them off and getting the opposite result that I am trying to get.