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01-06-2009, 12:17 PM #1
Pick up and Seduction in the UK - What You Need to KnowPICK UP AND SEDUCTION IN THE UK – WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
By 5.0 and Mr M (JOINT INSTRUCTOR ARTICLE)
(With special thanks to Mr M's wonderful intern londonwizard for the colorful formatting and proofreading)
British Girls are typically not as immediately sexually open as Americans and other Europeans
British Girls are generally not as sexually open, or as quick to be sexual, as Americans and other Europeans. This may on face value sound strange as British girls have a reputation for being quick to bed. This ‘slutty’ reputation is true on a certain level, particularly when the girls are overseas or when they are very drunk. Moreover, you can set sexually adventurous frames with certain British girls that incite sexual adventurousness. However, on the whole, our experience indicates that they are less sexually open and are not as forthcoming about sexual adventurousness as American and European women.
This stems from cultural differences. British people are taught to be very polite and reserved, particularly about their feelings and emotions to strangers. Furthermore, the entertainment culture in the UK is still quite conservative when compared to the US and Europe. Contrast this to the US, where shows like Girls Gone Wild and MTVs Spring Break actively encourage girls to get sexual / make out / experiment with other girls. There are of course exceptions to this rule, but on the whole, this difference in ‘sexual expression’ holds true.
Note that this is not meant to engender limiting beliefs that same night lays (SNLs) are not possible in the UK. THEY ARE VERY POSSIBLE AND THEY DO HAPPEN WITH REGULARITY. However, the secret to getting girls for FAST closes (e.g. SNLs) in the UK is logistics, buying temperature and discretion. Because of the conservative social conditioning, a girl can be very attracted to you but won’t go home with you. However, if you can provide a LOGISTICAL REASON TO GET TO THE SEDUCTION LOCATION and maintain buying temperature in the process (thus engaging her logical mind), achieving an SNL is a distinct possibility.
The Effect of Teasing
The British have a very distinct sense of humour. Girls in the UK love to laugh but the culture is one of irony, self deprecation and banter as opposed to slapstick.
This is why a guy like Braddock does so well over here – girls in the UK love intelligent banter and teasing. Contrast this to European girls (as Mr M and HiRoller mentioned in a previous article about Nordic girls – see here) who often do not understand this type of banter and are more likely to take teasing and banter more seriously and be limited in their ability to respond.
Of course, you should avoid seeking to be the guy who just teases and banters guy as his entire ‘seduction repertoire’. Being one-dimensional in any area is bad for pickup. Building rapport and establishing an emotional connection are still important skills. For more on how to do this, Mr M has a great free article on Qualification – click here. But be aware that you can be quite outrageous and teasing with British girls more than perhaps any other culture (as long as you deliver the banter with a smile and appropriate sub communications).
Differences in Bars and Clubs
• Due to the legal drinking age being 18, the average age of girls in bars/clubs is lower
This can be both awesome and scary at the same time! Be aware that girls in UK bars are on average a lot younger than what you might find at other bars and clubs in the world. See that smoking hot blonde standing at the bar and having massive approach anxiety? Well she is probably barely 19 and is likely making that bitch shield ‘don’t talk to me’ face because she is feeling out of her depth! This is why it is super important to open the 9’s/10’s in the UK – a lot of the time they are in fact intimidated by you (for more info on Gaming 9’s and 10’s, see Mr M and Braddock’s Interview Series on ‘9 and 10 Game’ here (you can even download a free sample from that link)).
Also note that knowing that the average age of girls will be younger allows you to calibrate your ‘game’ towards younger girls. For younger girls, garnering attraction VIA BUYING TEMPERATURE (USING TEASING AND HUMOUR), LEADERSHIP AND DOMINANCE, AND SOCIAL PROOF is more effective than using intrigue based attraction (cold reads, IVDs etc).
• Bottle service is pretty much nonexistent in the UK, hence having a table at a club will mean girls assign you higher value
Whilst in many other countries bottle service is seen as standard in nightclubs, in the UK, and especially London, it is still the reserve of promoters and people with money. Mr M, Sheriff, Vercetti and 5.0 used to use this to their advantage and have all, at one stage, (5.0 continues to do this) worked in nightclub promotions for several of the top high-end night clubs in London. The difference that this made to their perceived value was staggering.
In short, however, tables = status. This does not mean you should go out and spend the £1000 minimum just to get a table. Far from it. It is still possible to get hot girls without them. HOWEVER it is important to realise that being on a table in a high-end nightclub in the UK establishes you as having value above other guys in the club and can be used to your advantage as a DHV.
Note, however, that you don’t want to set the frame that you are buying the girls attention with drinks. Because the age of girls is lower, they will also try to rinse you for your drinks while flirting with no intention of hooking up. DON’T FALL INTO THIS TRAP. The best thing to do in order to close these girls if you have a table and drinks is to pump their buying temperature throughout the night and develop rapport. The hook ups and sex at these sorts of clubs usually happen at the seduction location so invite the girls to an ‘after party’ and close there.
• Door policies a lot stricter
Once again, male-female ratio logistics come back to haunt us. The sheer number of guys wanting to go out in the UK means that door staff will turn guys away for literally the smallest reason. They will cite any reason - shoes/trousers/jeans/t shirts/hair cuts/certain fashion labels... the list is endless.
The best way to ensure entry is of course to go in with girls, which means you are either going to have to roll in with some, or get chatting to a few in the queue... which even the best ‘PUA’ has to resort to sometimes!
Also, to avoid this completely, Mr M and Braddock go through how to make a location your ‘Prized Venue’ in Social Circle Mastery. If you manage to do this, you will never have to wait in line at the door again and be social proofed on your way in.
• Dancing with a guy is more of an IOI
In the USA, a random girl dancing with, or grinding up against you, cannot be taken as an IOI. This is a common occurrence in the USA and is often a way that girls tease guys.
If a British girl grinds and dances sexually with you on the dance floor, it is ok to take this as more of an IOI. If this happens, you should start escalating. If you feel as if there is still more comfort necessary for the close, then go for moving her around the bar by saying something like ‘let’s grab a drink’ or ‘I need some water’ or simply take her hand and show her a different area of the bar.
Calibration of High Bitch Shields
As a general rule, girls in the UK have a much higher perceived sexual value. A British girl you would rate as a 7, is more than likely to have a bitch shield comparable to a 10 you might meet in America for example. The reason for this is threefold – climate, ratio & suspicion.IVDs such as Magic and Cold Reads don’t tend to Hook as hard
- Climate – The UK (and Western Europe in general) is not blessed with the sunshine and heat of many other countries in the world. Therefore, British girls know their bodies are not on show as often and they therefore drink / eat probably more than they should – they know they can cover it up. They know the majority of girls don’t have the classically ‘hot’ figure and so they don’t strive to achieve it. Compare this with LA or San Diego, where going to the gym forms an integral part of a girl’s life. When a girl steps outside, there are attractive girls everywhere and she has to compete. This is not the case in the UK.
- Ratio – In a lot of night venues, there are a LOT more guys than girls. Therefore girls assume a higher internal value because of the sheer number of guys that will be hitting on them. If one guy hits on a 6, she knows she is a 6. If fifty guys hit on a 6, she will assume the attitude of a 10. Because the girls assume a higher value, this means your own internal value has to be high and resilient to attack. It also helps greatly to demonstrate social proof in the venue.
- Suspicion – British girls are more suspicious of strange guys talking to them. Ugly British girls, although they may act like a 10, still know inside they are a 6. Therefore, they are always on the back foot when a well dressed, articulate, funny guy comes to talk to them. They assume you are hitting on them. As a result, we find that some warm up sets are harder to hook than even a group of 10’s in a high end club. The 10’s know they are hot and so expect to be hit on; the 6’s will blow you out like a 10 but only because they are suspicious of your motives.
THE LESSON? EXPECT COLD APPROACHES IN A CLUB TO BE JUST THAT… COLD… EVEN ON AVERAGE LOOKING GIRLS.
In order to deal with the ‘bitch shield’, or shields in general, the first principle is to be UNREACTIVE and not let it visibly affect your value. For more on the principle of being unreactive, which is KEY to becoming attractive to females, read the following free Inner Game article written by Mr M – The Secret of Attractive Reactiveness.
The following lines can then be employed to deal with bitch shields:
- You know, everyone around this bar has been so friendly, it’s awesome. I’m [INSERT YOUR NAME]
- You know what’s a real shame? People are never real in bars. You never get the real person - there’s always the veneer… I mean, I’m sure if we had met in a library, we’d both be fun and interesting people, but seeing as it’s a bar, it’s different. I’m [INSERT NAME].
- OMG I love your angry face – it’s so cute. Don’t start smiling.
MR M IS CURRENTLY WRITING AN EPIC ARTICLE ON ‘THE ANATOMY OF BITCH SHIELDS’. CHECK HIS CLASSIC WRITINGS IN THE NEXT MONTH OR TWO TO SEE IF IT IS THERE.
As a magician, 5.0 used to do magic tricks in bars as a DHV but found it rarely hooked. Coming back to the girls’ inherent value again, British girls see it all too easily as you trying to ‘impress’ them, hence smashing your value. Your actions will almost certainly be perceived as ‘Emotional Overreaching’ (see Mr M’s article on Attractive Reactiveness for more on Emotional Overreaching). As most sets will be cold or tentative at the outset, you will find that while teasing and bantering works for the initial parts of attraction, attempting to get the compliance for something like The Cube (a detailed cold read) or an elaborate magic trick is construed as ‘try hard’ as opposed to a DHV.Other Miscellaneous (but helpful) Points
We have found however, THAT TIMING A COLD READ LATER IN QUALIFICATION OR COMFORT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN, IN BRADDOCK’S WORDS, ‘THROWING IN A HAND GRENADE OR AN ATOMIC BOMB’ – THE DIFFERENCE IS STARLING. Whereas in the US, using magic can be a huge DHV, in the UK, it will only hook if you have value in the first place. Examples of two good Cold Reads that can be used include:
- THE CHILDHOOD COLD READ. I'm going out on a limb here, but it feels to me like that when you were a kid....or even a teenager...something happened. Something made you grow up really fast, or become an adult before you were ready.
- THE HARD LIFE COLD READ. I bet people think you’ve had life easier than most people but I think the truth is you’ve had to work a lot harder than most people and at the same time I think you’ve had to play the role and pretend it’s easy that must be difficult. I understand.
• Being foreign is not as much of a DHV as it is in other countries
Mr M has theorized that a potentially useful attraction trigger is being the ‘vagabond’ i.e. the traveller. It is partly the reason why you tend to get laid more on holiday. Being the ‘vagabond’ can lead to sex due to (1) fewer social repercussions for sleeping with someone outside her social circle (i.e. you can be her secret and she has guaranteed discretion) (2) no repercussions to her social value for sleeping with someone (as no one else has to know and there is no lasting effect) and (3) evolutionary based attraction because you signal that you come from such a diverse gene pool. In LA, for example, just having a British accent is often enough to buy you at least 5 minutes of conversation.• Being dressed better helps - particularly in High End clubs
However, the Americans who have gamed with us in the UK have not experienced the same phenomenon to the same extent. This is due to the fact that the UK has continental Europe right on its doorstep, and that many travellers from other countries like to use the UK as a base for further travel in Europe. British girls are therefore used to a multicultural society and consequently take it for granted. Taking London as an example, you are almost more likely to meet girls from Europe as you are from the UK. To add to this, the UK is not a massive land mass, and so all these cultures get crammed in together resulting in a very cosmopolitan mix.
Harking back to the male-female ratio question, girls in the UK can afford to be a lot pickier in bars and clubs. Therefore you should aim to dress just a bit better than anyone else at the venue you are going to – whether it be a high end night club, or an indie venue. Many British guys make the mistake of not taking fashion seriously. While we are not advocating you should go out to spend £10,000 on 3 outfits, you should still seek to read men’s style and fashion magazines to see what is ‘in’ and aim to replicate the look based on your own style.
Moreover, Peacocking does not have a very strong effect in the UK due to the more laid back nature of the people.
One of the guest instructors on Project Rockstar (the amazing 8-week Game internship created and led by Mr M) advocates ‘pimp cocking’ in the UK. This means simply wearing just one or two items that invite conversation. Those that have been out with 5.0 will know that he wears a bike chain necklace and a cool leather bracelet with a metal crucifix on it – this will give girls something to open or re-initiate a conversation with. But a fuzzy hat, black nails and platform shoes may be too much (although once again there are exceptions to this rule). This is because the British people are more sarcastic and derisive with each other than many other nationalities. Granted, it will get girls to open you and can work if it is completely congruent with your personality and identity, but otherwise you run the risk of the girls seeing you as having a lower perceived value or quite simply ‘weird’.
In summary, it is better for people to open you with a compliment, question, or intrigue about the 'pimp-cocked' item rather than for you to wear something outrageous and not congruent with your identity just for the sake of peacocking. That being said, Sexy Stereotyping, a concept Brad P teaches, is still very effective if done correctly, but this is the topic of another post .
For more info about the instructors who wrote this article:
Mr M is the Lead Love Systems Instructor in the UK and Europe. He is ranked as one of the world’s Top 10 Pickup Artists by TSB Magazine. His bio is here. Read and see the pics of how he picked up a Playboy Playmate here.
5.0 is a Love Systems instructor based in the UK who specializes in Bar and High End Club Game. His bio is attached here. See the VIDEO of 5.0 training CELEBRITIES here.
Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.
- Theodore Roosevelt
01-06-2009, 02:48 PM #2
not bad, I've always wondered if some of the stuff on here didnt quite seem to match what was done in the UK... This is a good article - you ever discuss it in greater depth on 1-1's/bootcamps?
01-06-2009, 04:40 PM #3Certified Live Training Graduate Lounge Member
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When we run bootcamps in the UK you will obviously get to see this first hand and how we deal with these kind of girls/situations
1 on 1's are specifically tailored to the individual, so your instructor will spend the time talking you through this, or indeed which ever subject you want to work on.
-5.0Former Love Systems Instructor
01-06-2009, 05:23 PM #4
Btw with small exceptions this is how you game in Greece also you might want to note that down hehe[B]
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03-16-2009, 07:55 AM #5.
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Very good post
And this is what some Latin people (French, Italian and Spanish) find it more difficult in UK: after being trained in their own country, with HB's who do "respond" to them, all of a sudden they miss the Hook point in UK
One of the feedback my Italian crew gets is related to Body language: "too self confident, almost arrogant"
This is exactly the opposite as what you are taught to do: "high chin, chest out, walk straight, be confident...."
And this is a mistake Latin people tend to do in UK. UK HB's tend to be scared by this strong body language (Macro calibration ® , here)
I am still flabbergasted how "EASY" it is for me (and my crew members) to f-close immediately all the American HB you tend to "game".
In fact, all the rules we read about were at first decodified by Americans, thus, working mainly on Americans
(after being on Sunset Boulevard, in L.A. my crew was astonished to see how easy it was to f-close American HBs same night , every night)
When it comes to the basics, UK could be a tough gym, only the Macro calibration ® theory can help you come out easily, here.
In US or Europe, a palm reading or cold reading can be more than enough to hook her straight away.
Unfortunately the same, identical technique has given us two results here:
1) This scares the shit out of them
2) They don't give a s@@@ and are not interested at all
Bad timing could be the reason.
So, when it comes to UK my advice is always the following:
1) Go to London (that's where you have the highest number of foreigner HB come from (that's also why all the pick-up schools tend to be there and none else)
2) When in doubt, and you want a SML (Same night lay) without too much of a hassle, concentrate on the foreigners HB Target beautiful, Polish, Ukrainian, russians, Slovacks...etc
3) If you have the chance, go trying these things abroad: Europe and America. You study to get results in the long term, but also some "quick wins" to energise your frame. Avoid UK. Go abroad. Specialise and come back
There are exceptions, tough. In fact some UK HB's have travelled extensively. They are normally more open minded and know how to "play with you". Invest more time on them.
4) When in doubt and stuck in UK (wherever you are) and with no social value, use the drunk Game. If you manage to avoid the group of her friends who WILL come to rescue her, you'll f-close her. No problem. Watch out for the vomit stains in your car, tough...
(Option 4 is the one I have managed to avoid always. It is a matter of principle and "rules". But I accept many ppl do not agree)
09-01-2009, 03:12 PM #6
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The words 'Tough Gym' used just now are totally deserved. I sarge mainly in Liverpool and the HB's here tend to tolerate zero s***t. Ive been plying my gaming trade in the city centre for a little over eighteen months and whenever I leave this place I do tend to find closing girls in all forms to be so much easier.
I guess its because up here you really have to develop a tight game to get anywhere so when I go somewhere like Europe, South Africa or even other UK cities on occasion your game tends to blow people away, on the contrary I've actually had to tone my game down on occasion when sarging outside Liverpool because the common mindset elsewhere is a lot less openly stiff. Its a cut throat place when it come to pick up, if the girls here smell weakness they are on you in a second :S
But hey, whats the game without a little risk?
01-26-2010, 04:36 PM #7
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good post tho seems very London focused. I have lived in Belfast, Manchester, London and Glasgow (and also have numerous nights out in other places such as Newcastle and Edinburgh) and I found London to be by far the biggest cockfest and hardest work of all those places by quite some margin.
I moved there from Ireland and couldnt believe how there was sooo many more guys to girls no matter where I went but in particular I noticed the guys are A LOT more forward and aggressive approaching women (a lot of the most aggressive appear to be foreign) - as a result the girls are much colder and bitchier given they are getting so much hassle and generally 5s and 6s get on like theyre 9s or 10s. To be fair its hard to blame them given the frankly frightening levels of pushiness they have to deal with
So although I agree with the comments about the cube and magic tricks etc not having the same effect and that dancing is more of an IOI but the issue of there being more guys and it being tougher getting into clubs I would take as a reference specifically to London only as its a hell of a lot easier & better I found almost anywhere else in the UK and Ireland (IMO). Also the foreign thing also seems very London-centric as London is unique in the UK for being pretty much 80% non UK folk. I know as Im Irish and tend to get a lot of girls noticing (and liking) my accent in Glasgow/Newcastle/Manchester where the majority of people in bars are locals. when i was in NYC the irish accent certainly didnt have as great an impact as i thought it might but again im not sure if its unique in the states for having a high % of irish people
To be honest I avoid sarging in London as frankly its just not worth it (i still visit a lot given the number of friends i have down there) the girls are much harder work and much lower quality (looks and particularly personality)
Still tho a very good article nonetheless and the above is only my opinion as someone who has lived in numerous UK cities and regular visitor to other European cities and NYC. I regularly bring my London friends up to Glasgow to my favourite haunts and love watching their jaws hit the ground!
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