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Discuss sarging strippers at the Strippers and Hired Guns within the The Attraction Forums. Dating Advice.; Originally Posted by evan_essence I'm sorry, I'm not following you here at all. If you ...
  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by evan_essence View Post
    I'm sorry, I'm not following you here at all. If you don't do the same things every time, it's dynamic. There are all kinds of field reports here from fairly experienced PUAs that indicate to me that it's dynamic. We even get more experienced PUAs complaining when a newbie comes in and cites some methodology that's a couple years out of date that he's mistaken in assuming it's static.
    Then you're not taking it at an abstract enough level. In one case, A2 may mean telling a story that DHVs you as a protector of loved ones, in another it may mean negging or ignoring her completely, and in another it may mean simply being good looking, but it's all A2, and it has to happen every time, or you're not picking the girl up, end of story. There's no wiggle room there, you must generate F2M attraction every time, or you're wasting your time. Whether you use Juggler method or Mystery method or whatever is a matter of personal preference and adapting to the situation, but the same requirements must be fulfilled regardless of how you choose to go about it.
    However, unlike Mystery Method, there are no variables in a scientific measurement of the colors used within the painting, and unless you use the same numbers, you won't achieve duplication. But um, I've just reduced myself to arguing over the analogy rather than the original point. Not too productive.
    Let me bring it back for you. There are no variables in the M3 model either. You can't even run the sections out of order, because if you run comfort before attraction, you're making friends, not picking up. Just like the final colors in the mona lisa may be static and easy to analyze, the methods for achieving those colors are dynamic and vary from artists to artist, genre to genre, etc. The methods may vary, but both the underlying model and the end results are static.
    Perhaps this is an issue of semantics. It's not sarging them to acquire social proof? It's not sarging them to acquire possible pivots? It's not sarging them to acquire overall experience? For that matter, if you get her home and she drops her thong and you see a giant Lucifer tattoo drawn with its mouth opening around her labia and you think, eh, I'm not into this so I'm gonna disengage, that wasn't really a sarge because you decided, f*ck it, I'm not f*cking it? (Um, Lucifer as in the Debbil, but come to think of it, if you saw a tat of you down there, that might be way creepier.)
    Yes and no. If you are actually just trying to make friends with someone, then no. If you pick them up with the intention of starting a sexual relationship and then you end up screening them out, you certainly sarged them, you just decided they weren't up to par.
    I really think you're out of the mainstream in your definition of the word compared to how it is commonly used in this forum. When you use MM principles to establish a situation in which strippers hang with you without being paid, and in which they buy you drinks, dude, that's an outcome that deviates enough from the norm, that I'd call it sarging them.
    I'd call it being sociable, which is good practice for sarging. Sarging is outcome dependant, or at least is dependant on the intention of an outcome.
    Let me put it this way: if what you describe above is sarging, then I sarge everyone, everywhere, every second of every day. But I'm not trying to fuck everyone, I gave that shit up in my 20s when I realized I just couldn't have them all.
    (And if any dancers are reading this, please don't fall for this. If he won't buy a dance or a drink for you and you're not getting paid to sit there, move the heck on. It makes it harder for the other dancers when you to sit there goofing off on the job all night. Other customers wonder why they don't get the same free treatment.)
    Bad girl! You're supposed to be on our side! Other customers don't get the same treatment because they're not me!
    I think you should go back and reread the first chapter of the VAH, the entire idea behind pickup is enabling guys to begin a sexual relationship with as many women as they want. How many and how often they want to do it with is a personal preference, but the purpose of this game is the f-close. Read that again. No one is here because they wanted to make more friends, guys searched for and found this site, and MM, and all the other pickup material, because they want to get laid. Now, in the process, many guys improve themselves to the point that they are more interested in getting to know great people than getting the f-close, but that only happens after they've f-closed 20 or 30 girls and decided that there is more to it. The point of the method will always be the f-close, and where people grow after that is up to them. That's a whole different self-help book, this one is about getting laid.
    Bottom line, we disagree about this statement: Interacting with women using MM is called sarging whether f-close is involved or not.
    There's nothing to agree or disagree about, read the book that outlines the method and see what it says. It's right there in black and white. Somehow I don't think Mystery would stress being weeded out of the gene pool so much if the idea was to make nice friends. Like I said, there are other forums for other social activities, this one is about getting women to sleep with you; a skill no one ever teaches guys growing up, unlike women who are constantly barraged with articles and talk shows about "how to land a man." If that's offensive to you then you should take a look at your own inner game, rather than trying to backward rationalize what this place is about. That's girl stuff, we only do that here as a routine.
    Haha. Tempting. But I think you're just trying to time bridge me.
    Me, nooooo... you're just rationalizing the fact that you're attracted to me.
    Always be closing.
    lucifer



  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer214 View Post
    There's no wiggle room there, you must generate F2M attraction every time, or you're wasting your time. Whether you use Juggler method or Mystery method or whatever is a matter of personal preference and adapting to the situation, but the same requirements must be fulfilled regardless of how you choose to go about it.
    Um, no. I honestly don't know how to bridge the gulf of our perspectives on this. You're viewing it as some rigid scientific measurement, and I'm viewing it as an appoximate description of what might be happening possibly most of the time. Totally different "frames," I suppose. Given that I'm not arguing that you should change your ways, I don't think there's a practical reason to argue this anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer214 View Post
    Let me put it this way: if what you describe above is sarging, then I sarge everyone, everywhere, every second of every day.
    Thank you. It's about time you understood that's the case, considering you're the one doing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer214 View Post
    But I'm not trying to fuck everyone, I gave that shit up in my 20s when I realized I just couldn't have them all.
    See, but you sarge everyone anyway. Hard to turn off, isn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer214 View Post
    Bad girl! You're supposed to be on our side! Other customers don't get the same treatment because they're not me!
    Eh, the desire not to pay in a strip club is a common philosophy among men, so you're not as different as you might believe. The point is, if everyone accomplishes that, there won't be any strippers and strip clubs left for you to sarge in. Which isn't really that big of a deal for you guys, but the girls goofing off ought to be a little more conscientious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer214 View Post
    I think you should go back and reread the first chapter of the VAH, the entire idea behind pickup is enabling guys to begin a sexual relationship with as many women as they want. How many and how often they want to do it with is a personal preference, but the purpose of this game is the f-close.
    Thank you, Dr. God, for closing the door on anyone else's perspective. In spite of how you choose to apply these concepts, I'm betting a significant portion of guys here don't believe that a notch in the bedpost is the only measure of success. A few have posted so, a few have told me so directly, and I suspect there are others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer214 View Post
    Read that again. No one is here because they wanted to make more friends, guys searched for and found this site, and MM, and all the other pickup material, because they want to get laid. Now, in the process, many guys improve themselves to the point that they are more interested in getting to know great people than getting the f-close, but that only happens after they've f-closed 20 or 30 girls and decided that there is more to it. The point of the method will always be the f-close, and where people grow after that is up to them. That's a whole different self-help book, this one is about getting laid.
    Here's what I'm seeing. "Get laid fast" is a shorthand version of it used as marketing hype to sell the product. I don't believe, as you imply, that everyone's sole goal here is to get laid. Some significant portion of the guys here have seen beyond the marketing hype to understand that MM can help them analyze and implement the things it takes to attract a woman and build comfort. For real, not trickery. For them, getting laid is a benefit of creating a real relationship with a woman or women, not a goal in and of itself. They understand success is not predicated on creating a facade to get laid. It's predicated on being the kind of person who creates sincere comfort which then can result in sex. And that's probably the main point of contention between us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer214 View Post
    There's nothing to agree or disagree about, read the book that outlines the method and see what it says. It's right there in black and white.
    See? Strict constructionist. By the book. Didn't I say "by the book"? Why did you argue that point when you're constantly giving evidence of it? Oh, well, that's rhetorical, no need to debate it.
    Some people see alternate interpretations. Some people read between the lines. Some people take a principle and expand upon it. If "by the book" is your style, cool. But don't expect it to be everyone's. Neither you nor Mystery "own" the interpretation and manipulation of human psychology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer214 View Post
    Somehow I don't think Mystery would stress being weeded out of the gene pool so much if the idea was to make nice friends. Like I said, there are other forums for other social activities, this one is about getting women to sleep with you;
    All I see is "Put beautiful women under your spell" and "Meet more women" at the top of the page. Nowhere do I see public declarations on this forum that f-close is the only thing it's about. If that's all it's about, it's curious that such great pains are taken to hide it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer214 View Post
    If that's offensive to you then you should take a look at your own inner game, rather than trying to backward rationalize what this place is about. That's girl stuff, we only do that here as a routine.
    Yeah, okay, few things other than sex forced on children offend me. I was a stripper, after all. I'm describing the interpretations I'm seeing here, not prescribing an interpretation, and I'm telling you that, although some portion of the populice agrees with you, your contemporaries don't all see it or practice it the same way you do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer214 View Post
    Me, nooooo... you're just rationalizing the fact that you're attracted to me.
    Nah, I'm becoming attracted to piper. He's already moved it into PM.
    -Ev

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    I want to correct what I believe are some misconceptions in this thread and make some miscellaneous random observations:
    • Nearly all strippers will date or have (free) sex with a customer at some point during their career. Dating is more likely to happen closer to the start of their careers. After a couple of experiences they typically get cynical and jaded about it and don't try it again. Thus I strongly agree with EV's suggestion to target the newer strippers. Or better yet waitresses before they even become strippers. (Once they have done their jobs for a while, ONS with customers will become more likely than dating.)

    • I don't have direct experience with this myself, but the guy I know who is the best at this says married strippers are actually easier to f-close than unmarried ones. You have to understand that the typical stripper husband is probably just some AFC living off her money. Think about it: Would you tolerate you wife being a stripper? So if she meets an alpha in the club...

    • The strippers who try to seduce you by talking are actually the easiest to turn the tables on. The ones who just circle the room with "wanna dance?" can prove difficult.

    • Most strippers will have paid sex with some of their customer during their career. Most do WAY more "extras" (and much more easily) than they will ever let on. Never believe a word strippers say about this.

    • If she has a boyfriend it won't make it harder for a ONS, but dating will be harder. She might make out with you in the club one night, then the next time you see her, act cold and like nothing ever happened

    • It is much easier to get ONSs (which often involve threesomes) with strippers than to date them. But would you really want to date your typically stripper anyway?

    • After about three years in the business, strippers don't have much humanity left in them, so getting value alignment is going to be extremely difficult. Just go overboard on attraction and get an ONS

    • I want to qualify all this by saying that some strippers are just normal girls. Typically this is the case close to the beginning of their career. But a very small percentage (maybe 1 in 200) can work for >= 3 years and still come out with a bit of humanity in tact. Don't count on it though

    • You can date or have (free) sex with a stripper you have bought drinks or even dances from, providing you didn't go overboard and look needy or desperate. Giving a tip on the stage is no big deal providing you can congruently frame it as you just being polite, as opposed to some strategy to get her to talk to you.

    • Ultimately, if are looking for an LTR it's going to come down to value alignment. This is something I think most PUAs are going to have great difficulty achieving with strippers. There is just not much intersection between our world and theirs. Nevertheless some strippers do seem to have some longing to get out their world, and hence can be attracted to guys who can offer that. (Be very careful not to become the "rescuer" type described in Greene's The Art of Seduction however. Strippers know all about this, and it is one of their favorite victim types. If you don't spend money you should be safe from this, of course.)

    • An informal survey of mine has shown that strippers are about three times as promiscuous as college girls of the same age.

    • Many (perhaps most?) stripper are either drunk or stoned while on their shifts. Must say something about how difficult it is to do their jobs otherwise.
    Last edited by PhilosopherKing; 10-06-2006 at 11:27 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by evan_essence View Post
    Thank you. It's about time you understood that's the case, considering you're the one doing it.
    See, but you sarge everyone anyway. Hard to turn off, isn't it?
    There is no off. And given that, why do I need a verb for it? "Sarge" is an active verb, it suggests an outcome. I don't need a verb to describe what happens every second of every day, I need a verb to describe a specific action that is different from every other second of every day.
    Thank you, Dr. God, for closing the door on anyone else's perspective. In spite of how you choose to apply these concepts, I'm betting a significant portion of guys here don't believe that a notch in the bedpost is the only measure of success. A few have posted so, a few have told me so directly, and I suspect there are others.
    Stop being a girl and use your logic for a minute. No one said anything about the only measure of success in such black and white terms. However, given the plainly stated terms of all pickup methods (that the goal is an f-close), success at MM/pickup/game is certainly measured in notches. Have you actually read any of these books, or are you just on the forum?
    Like I said, the rest is a different self help book. Yes, there are other , much more important, things to measure your personal success by. But success at MM (which is the site we are on, incidentally) can only be measured in the ratio of closes to opens.
    Here's what I'm seeing. "Get laid fast" is a shorthand version of it used as marketing hype to sell the product. I don't believe, as you imply, that everyone's sole goal here is to get laid.
    Then how did they find the site? They were looking for how to "get laid fast."
    Some significant portion of the guys here have seen beyond the marketing hype to understand that MM can help them analyze and implement the things it takes to attract a woman and build comfort.
    After they got laid a minimum of a couple dozen times and they can successfully close pretty much anyone they want! Of course, it's easy to say getting laid isn't what it's about if you can get laid. Without a doubt, every male on this forum came here originally for the sole purpose of learning how to get laid, to learn how to get better at getting laid, or to help other people get better at getting laid.
    Some people see alternate interpretations. Some people read between the lines.
    Yes, but if you read between the lines without reading the actual lines first, you lose all context and your theories aren't actually based on anything but personal opinion out of thin air.
    Read any book on pickup, the goal is plainly stated in every one of them. Maybe you've forgotten that we're men, and we want to get laid. It is the second most important primal urge, right after not dying, and right before eating. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.
    lucifer

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    On the subject of #-closing strippers: Note that it is useless unless your skill level is so high you can spot a flake a mile away.
    Just for fun, however, some readers might like to try this experiment: Go into a strip club and act all AFC. Try to "#-close" strippers and see if it ever fails. You'll probably have at least an 80% success. The only time they will talk to you when you call, however, is to persuade you to come in and buy dancers, or if they recently broke up with their boyfriend and have run out of people to listen to their whining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilosopherKing View Post
    There is just not much intersection between our world and theirs.
    How true. Mirror images don't intersect.
    -Ev

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    A couple of my favourite lines with strippers are
    When ever they ask you for a private dance or anything involving you paying them
    Would you like a private dance? Massage?
    "Sure what time are you off work and then we can dance all night"
    This one always gets them laughing after a chatting a bit they will go for the close again asking you for money.
    "If I give you money we will have created a business relationship and that would make a personal relationship impossible"
    Those two sprinkled into the chat work well for me.
    I just wanted to say this community is fairly new for me, I've done well with my own resources I've never given much thought to the techniques I use, let alone write them in a book. Much respect to those posting helping brothers out.

  8. #38
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    x

    "I'd love it. But me arresting you afterwards would spoil it."

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