Big game abroad

Thread: Big game abroad

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  1. #1

    Big game abroad

    As I mentioned a few weeks ago, I've been talking to a girl from Italy on the internet for about 8 months now. I've been helping her with English and job applications as she wants eventually to get a good job out of her home country of Italy one day. I visited her in Italy a few months ago for a week, it didn't go well, but I didn't give up. I continued to stay in contact with her and helped her with a job application for an internship in a big company in France a couple of months ago. She got the internship and invited me over. So I went last week.

    She's a very intelligent 8, she knows she's hot, but she still has some self-esteem issues. When I got there my plan was to have a strong frame, neg her a bit, give her IODs, be a bit aloof and not get dragged around by her but lead and wander off on my own if necessary. I came up with interesting stories to tell her to keep the conversation going, DHV, make myself sound interesting and so forth, and I got my female friend from home to call me a few times to create a bit of jealousy. I tried not to elicit her values much or ask her many questions but talk about myself (Juggler style), be interesting, independent, and under no circumstances chase or appear interested until she gave some IOIs.

    Well, things were constantly up and down. Here's a day-by-day summary:

    DAY ONE - She seemed interested as we sat down for dinner on the first night and I told her some funny stories. But then she went off and sat in front of Skype for hours talking to her "sweetheart" in Rome... I went to bed early.


    DAY TWO - I met her at her office for lunch, it was okay, but I sensed she saw me only as a friend - the conversation was all about her work problems. Then she made me wait for about 5 hours while she finished up. When we finally met up we just went to the city centre and met her Italian friend, Al, and went shopping. I thought fuck this I'm not getting dragged around while she does her shopping with this orbiter, so I went off and told her to call me and we'd meet later.

    We met later after I'd ignored a few SMSs and calls to create some tension (I told her my phone was fucking up). We went out for dinner with Al and some other orbiter from her work, Mark. She seemed a bit flirty at dinner, sitting close to me, touching, being cute and funny, talking about sex, and I think I saw her looking at me sometimes from the corner of my eye (were these IOIs or was she just gaming the other orbiters? I'm not sure).

    Later we went to a shitty club after she led us all round town finding "her kind of place." I reluctantly let her lead a bit because it was her city and her birthday eve and I didn't want to take her somewhere where she would be bored. Anyhow we ended up in a shitty sweatbox of a club and I fucked up - I hate clubs because I don't dance and have a quiet voice. and so I ended up sitting on my own in the corner for hours waiting for them while they went dancing.

    When they came back I was pissed off and didn't say anything for the rest of the night. She sensed it and didn't say a word to me but spoke to Al in Italian including trying to make me jealous I think by holding his hand as we walked home. I pretended to use my phone and texted myself a few times as I walked several meters behind them. She asked if a "jealous girlfriend" was calling (an IOI?) and I just said, "oh, no one." I was really pissed off and just ignored them both.


    DAY THREE - It was her birthday, I think Al thought I was a psycho after last night and she was just confused. so I made sure I was really friendly to try and pretend I just had a bad night and was maybe just tired. But I was still pissed off and didn't want her to see that I was affected by her hand-holding, so I got my female friend to call me to create some jealousy. It seemed to work a bit I think, at least it made her curious. Later I gave her a CD as a present and she blew me a kiss (IOD?). We went out to buy food for her birthday buffet but I refused to be led around so went off and bought my own food and got my lunch and met them later.

    Back at the house she tried to make me jump through several hoops and help her in the kitchen. I gave in a couple of times but for the rest I only helped conditionally or ignored her. I don't know if it worked - I sensed that she just thought I was a selfish prick because I was staying in her house for free and SHOULD have been helping!

    The party was stupid. She invited all these different people from different social circles (mostly orbiter guys) - work, Italy, friend of friend etc. - and no one mixed much and there wasn't even any music! Plus she disappeared for most of the night into another room and sat talking to this fat ugly desperate lawyer who was doing every AFC trick in the book. I sensed that she either did this because she was really socially inept or because she's a master manipulator and made all the orbiters in the other room jealous.

    Anyhow I didn't play into it, I just went off and talked to other people. Eventually when she came out later that night she sat next to me and put her arms round me. I thought, WTF? Then the AFC who she'd been with came and sat next to her trying to muzzle in on our little moment together. I don't know what she was doing. Maybe just trying to get rid of the AFC? Anyhow. we went out for more drinks that night to some bar. She asked for a massage on the way there in the car. I was sat directly behind her so maybe she wanted me to do it? But I didn't get a chance anyway because all the other orbiters just jumped in. It was ridiculous.

    So we ended up in a bar - 5 guys, 1 hot girl. I just ignored her and let the orbiters pay her attention. Then we went to some Cuban club - a serious sweatbox with no room to move and music too loud to hear yourself think. Again I just ended up in the corner of a seating area, but at least this time everyone else eventually ended up there with me. She came over after dancing and sat on this French guy's knee, the AFC lawyer looked heartbroken, I just ignored her and pretended to look at other girls all night while drinking a beer (in hindsight perhaps this was a DLV, oh well, I couldn't think of anything else at the time).

    We walked back that night and she asked me for my jacket. I said no playfully. I said she could have it if she gave me a back massage later, so she very reluctantly agreed after about 30 mins of walking (IOD?). I gave her the jacket, we got back but she just went to bed.


    DAY FOUR - Finally alone at home, no orbiters. Orbiter Mark called to arrange to go to a neighbouring city but I blocked that. She had a hangover and sat talking on Skype again to her "sweetheart" from Italy. I let her be for a while then came in and tried to boyfriend smash. She asked for a massage, I wasn't sure whether to give one because she still owed me one from last night, but I thought it was too good an opportunity to miss so I gave her one including pulling out my head massage party trick - it's unusual and girls love it. I went out to make some tea and as I was gone she started having a shouting match on Skype with the "sweetheart" (shouting is quite common for her, she's a passionate girl, so I thought nothing of it). Eventually I came back, gave her a cup of tea and then said I'm going out - I didn't want to waste the whole day waiting for her. She gave me a strange hurt look as I went. I'm not sure if this was just because she'd had an argument or because she wanted me to comfort her or something, I don't know. But I thought it was a good time to "take away" - go from orgasmic massage to leaving for several hours.

    When I got back I was in for a surprise. It took her about 15 mins to buzz me in at the apartment door. And when I finally got up to the apartment ACF lawyer was there with a stash of DVDs. I was pretty shocked. Did she invite this chump? Why did it take 15 mins to answer? Did she fuck him? I was gutted. That night we sat at dinner the three of us. I didn't say much, I was in too much shock. Then she said to the guy, "so we'll watch a film. And, are you good at massages?" At that point my blood started to boil. WTF? I'd shared an intimate massage moment with her earlier today and I guarantee it was the best one she's ever received. So I let them get on with it anyway and didn't show any concern. They sat watching some movie in the main room while I surfed the net in another room that night. I thought it was bad enough that she was ignoring me and snuggling with this chump on the sofa but then suddenly from the other room I hear her making these ridulous orgasm sounds as she gets this massage. Was she trying to make me jealous? Did she like this guy? I didn't know. All I knew was I was torn up inside. Eventually orbiter Al came over and fat lawyer disappeared. Al and her were talking in Italian again so I just went to my room a broken man and pretended to listen to music and read a book. I didn't wash up that night, I left the TV on and I didn't turn any lights off. That really pissed her off I think.


    DAY FIVE - I was so pissed off this day, I thought it was all over, either that or she was trying to make me jealous. So she went to work that day, she invited Al for lunch but not me. So I went off and tried to make the most of being in France on my own and visited a lot of sites that day. She sent me an SMS to say she was finishing at 5 and I should call if I wanted to meet. I sent an aloof message back an hour later telling her I was at a museum in town if she wanted to meet me. She didn't come and so I spent the rest of the night out alone feeling depressed. Eventually she texted me at 8 and asked where I was and if I was coming home for dinner. I replied "back soon" and didn't turn up till 9.

    When I got in I decided to be very energetic and pretend I'd just had a great time with a bunch of people I'd met who, by conincidence, were from my home town! Total bullshit, I'd just spent the night alone feeling sorry for myself, but it seemed to work. She was sat there looking very pissed off. I said she looked tired and then she let me have it: "I'm sad. You come here and treat this place like a hotel. I don't think you came to see me at all." Then she brought up me being anti-social to the lawyer last night, and so I told her "but I thought you liked the guy! I thought you wanted space" and her face dropped. So was this a ploy to make me jealous? It looked like it. She then explained he came over himself, she found him hidious, and she was very clear with him that the massage was not a prelude to sex. Then she brought up my girl calling and steam was practically coming out of her ears. I thought great, she's jealous! Then she started whining about other things like me being generally unhelpful in the house and cold with her friends etc. She said "why don't you just go." So I said ok and pretended to get my bag, but then she looked hurt and ran off to her room.

    Great timing, suddenly the phone rang and it's my girl calling for the third time! We talked for a few minutes and then rung off. I took 15 minutes away then decided to go to her room and try and talk to her. She was sat there sulking playing card on her laptop. She wouldn't look at me despite my trying to physcially turn her round. She was really angry and so I just tried to be all sensitive with her. Eventually I admited that the girl on the phone was just a friend and put her at ease about it. And as soon as I did that her anger seemed to completely dissolve. We then talked for an hour or two about her life and so on. I just listened and pulled on a sensitive guy routine. Next thing she's getting ready to sleep, gets on her bed and starts rubbling lotion on her legs (DHV?). My god, the little man was getting a bit excited. I wasn't sure whether she was just doing this because she felt totally comfortable with me, a "friend", or whether she was doing it to try and turn me on? I couldn't think what to say so I just said with a big smile, "you shouldn't go that in front of me, it's pretty sexy."

    I thought maybe something is going to happen now. But then she puts an audio book on her PC and gets in bed and tells me to switch the PC off if she falls asleep. Fuck! I thought, I'm not waiting here while she goes to sleep that would be a DLV (mistake?). So I said "no way, I'm going to bed." So I went out half hoping she would call me back, but she didn't. I went for a piss then decided fuck it I'll go back in. So I went in, sat on her bed, and pulled out Mr sensitive again and said, "look, I hope there's no hard feelings about before...." etc etc., kenoed a little, and she said no everything was fine now. So then I said, "Ok, give me a kiss then." It was a gamble and it didn't seem to work. she looked all shy, smiled, and shook her head. I said, "why?" (mistake, I know!) so she said playfully "because I hate guys". I thought, "Oh god, how am I going to salvage this?" so I said, "come on" and kenoed. I saw her thinking but I didn't look like she was going to go for it so I just pointed to my cheek with a smile and so she got up, gave me a peck on the cheek and then a big hug but pushed me off after a few seconds with, "not too much." I went to bed a little confused.


    DAY SIX - She went to work and I spent the day with orbiter Al at a museum. Me and Al then met her after work and I decided to be less aloof now and just be more comforting. We went to a bookstore then walked through town. She was talking about sex a lot, jokingly of course, but she was being quite graphic asking me for the English slang for oral, 69, anal etc. (IOI?). Then we went for a shit meal and had a good laugh at the restaurant with more sex jokes coming from her. Then we headed back to the apartment after a drink and she decides she wants me to get her a cigarette from someone and won't move until either me or Al gets her one. I refused to comply and Al followed my lead. So she storms off down the street at night probably expecting one of us to come after her. I refused and just got the bus back with Al.

    We wait at the apartment for about an hour. Al texted her and called several times in Italian so I didn't think anything serious was wrong. Finally she comes storming up the street and she is really pissed off again. I just laughed. We went into the apartment, Al finally disappeared after telling her to to stop acting like a baby in Italian I think.

    We go inside and she tells me she doesn't want to be friends with someone who laughes at her. So we get into another argument and more threats of kicking me out. She was just being emotional again, I thought, but I refused to DLV by kissing up. So I just shouted back this time and told her I was leaving in the morning and go to my room. She comes storming in and tells me to go now or she'll call the police. I pull out a really angry routine and act like she's blown it with me completely and say I'm going in the morning, I don't care about her at all, and she can call if the police if she likes. At this point she then realises that I'm not like her orbiter friends, I think, and so she starts trying to explain herself to me and empathising with me, "oh maybe it's because you didn't know what Al said to me..." etc. I let her do this for 15 mins or so and just act like I don't even care what she says anymore. Then after 15 mins I start to soften and invite her to sit next to me on the bed. At this point, wow, she looked so cute and adorable. She became all shy and starts hiding behind the door a little, so I think, "not again - this girl needs leading" so I grab her gently and pull her next to me and she seems to really respond well to this and hugs me and starts crying and explaining how I should be patient with her (IOI?). I wanted to move in for a kiss but the moment somehow didn't feel right and the conversation started to falter as she started telling me all her life problems again. Eventually I sat for 2 hours listening to her. Then suddenly she says good night and walks off. Fuck! I thought. Not again. So I call her back and tell her to give me a hug again and whisper some shit about me really caring about her in her ear. She doesn't respond though so I let her go to bed.


    LAST DAY - Last fucking day. What can I do? It feels too soon to tell her I can't get her out of my mind and all of that. But there is no other option it seems, so I'll just have to tell her that at some point and hope that she responds positively. Either that or I just move in for a kiss and see what happens.

    That day we meet again after work and I expect her to want to go for dinner somewhere but instead she just takes me straight back to the apartment (IOI?). We're sat on the couch together while she relaxes in front of the TV. Suddenly she takes off her bra from under her t-shirt and tells me not to look (IOI?). I assume this is an IOI. The she tells me to sit on the other couch so she can lie down. I mumble something about a massage so lies with her head near my lap and I rub her back and caress her face and hair gently for about 40 mins. I try to escalate by asking her if she likes to get kissed on the neck or get her ear nibbled, but she doesn't respond much by getting up and looking at me or anything and just says, "it depends on the guy" (IOD?). I go and make a drink come back and she says I'm going to bed for a while.

    So she eventually emerged an hour or so later and makes the dinner. We have a bit of a joke and the conversation is fun. I wash up and make drinks and then join her on the couch again later. she's sat on the other end so I motion her to come closer and mumble something, I don't know whether she misundestood me or not or whether she is giving me an IOD, but she says, "Al's coming over soon." I think fuck it and motion her over more clearly. She immediately complies (IOI?) and snuggled next to me. I start caressing her again and whispering shit in her ear and then I tell her, "you know, it's strange, I can't get you out of my mind..." and she pulls away sharply (IOD?). Oh fuck I think, maybe this is just anti-slut? So I pull her in again and say some more shit and ask what she thinks about that. And she pulls away again and this time goes to the other end of the couch and says, "I don't think anything." I say, "you don't feel the same?" and she says no....

    She goes to her room and puts the CD on I bought her (IOI?). 5 minutes later she calls me in. 'Is it still on?' I'm wondering. No, she just sits me down and asks me to correct some English work with her. I see her looking at me as I read and laughing and being playful, but she doesn't touch me or anything. Eventually Al comes over and they speak Italian for an hour or so and I watch TV feeling uncomfortable. I say goodbye to Al and see him to the door, and at this point she seems to get really anxious and starts saying in English, "right i'm going to bed right now while you're seeing Al out" (IOD?) so I just ignore her. When I come back up she isn't in bed yet, but sat on her bed. I say, "are you going to bed now?" or something and she says yes. I apologise for making her feel uncomfortable and then extend my arms for a hug but she just remains sitting on her bed, so I fuck off to bed a broken man.


    FINAL MORNING - We just say goodbye coldly and I go home. She sends me an SMS to check if I left safely. When I get home I discover she has changed her password to her email account (I had access for a while because of of job applications) so she's probably emailing her sweetheart and all her friends telling them what a loser I am.


    FINAL ANALYSIS – I don’t know what the fuck I did wrong -too many possibilities. Maybe she is just a manipulator, that’s what one of my girlfriends says. Thing is, all her friends are guy friends and I’m sure most of them are orbiters. She either knows this and likes having them around for power or she is unaware of it and just doesn’t understand. If it’s the latter then maybe she just saw me as a male friend too, I don’t know. But to me she seemed to give several IOIs such as the jealousy, sex talk, always asking my opinion about her relationship with her Italian “sweetheart”, valuing my opinion when I got angry with her, massages, bra removal, lotion on the legs etc. etc. But I don’t know, maybe all this was just because she saw me as “a good friend” I don’t know. Maybe she is just a manipulator who likes having power over guys. My head is up my arse at the moment and I can’t get her out of my mind so I don't know. I’d appreciate outside opinions…



  2. #2
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    Diagnosis: Acute One-itis.

    By the way, this may be moved to the Jive Turkey Droppings repository. Although on the one hand I feel your pain, on the other you might read through the Forum guidelines and check JTD to establish whether or not you should post something like this. It's more like a diary entry.

    Quick advice: This reads like the summary of one of those Italian operas where some chick is running around town with a gaggle of AFCs chasing after her. Move on. You'll feel better. And you can always tell this story to your mates for laughs!
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  3. Dude, that chick was in the bag, pretty much up until the last morning. That shy/playful/giggling thing is token resistance. Italian Catholic sex-guilt, maybe? Every time you showed her the slightest bit of authority, she caved just like that. Also, you don't handle obstacles by sitting in corners feeling sorry for yourself. That's the sort of chase-me game women play. Like that AFC lawyer crying in the bedroom.

  4. #4

    Yeah I think I have it a bit now. It was a big adventure for me and very intense to be around her for a week. At first I didn't even care if it worked out or not, but she has some kind of charm over men that makes you fall for her.

    I'm sure I'll be okay in a week or so, but right now my mind is messed up and I think an analysis of my performance would be useful. I'm a total beginner and this was a big test for me. I'm sure some would say I shouldn't have done it but I felt it was too good an opportunity to pass up.

  5. #5

    I disagree about it being one-itis or a bad FR as much as a "lost in translation" like f- over.

    There wasn't much mention of the bf in Rome in the FR though. I think she's content with him and when he's not around wants the attention of men on her.

    This is boyfriend destroyer routine stuff and getting her away from the orbiters. You're out of town, your time is valuable. But she's putting you up at her place so you're obligated to be there at any time from the way it sounds.

    I would've figured it out after the second night. I'd be on the internet looking for a place to sleep for a couple of nights then come back. Prob. right after her birthday party, esp if she had this situation going on.

    Not sure if she's a master manipulator... I don't get that impression. In need of being the center of attention, but keeps in constant contact with her boyfriend. She just left Italy, so you'd have to give it a couple of months until you could get a good feeling about where that relationship's going.

  6. #6

    Quote Originally Posted by v4nilla View Post
    Dude, that chick was in the bag, pretty much up until the last morning. That shy/playful/giggling thing is token resistance. Italian Catholic sex-guilt, maybe? Every time you showed her the slightest bit of authority, she caved just like that.
    Yeah, believe me, I really wanted to go in for the kiss so many times but just the whole situation of being in her home in a foreign country made me back away until I was totally certain. That's why I asked her to kiss me and why I told her how I felt first. I was worried if I'd read the whole situation wrong I might frighten her or whatever and end up alone with a big hotel bill or even in a prison cell.

    I discovered towards the end of the trip during a conversation about her career goals that she is very power hungry. She told me that from a very young age until now her only aspiration was to be an important person like her grandfather so that she could make all the decisions and affect change in the world. She's ferociously ambitious and she really liked to lead, especially guys, which is why it was interesting and awkward for me to stand up to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdnightfly
    There wasn't much mention of the bf in Rome in the FR though. I think she's content with him and when he's not around wants the attention of men on her....This is boyfriend destroyer routine stuff and getting her away from the orbiters. You're out of town, your time is valuable. But she's putting you up at her place so you're obligated to be there at any time from the way it sounds.
    The whole boyfriend thing was a real spanner in the works. As far as I knew when I booked my tickets four weeks ago she was single, sexually frustrated, and had been for about two years - all systems go as far as I was concerned. Then suddenly two weeks ago a close friend of hers in Italy, Roberto, whom she has known for about seven years suddenly sleeps with a girl. Now this guy Roberto and her were really close when I met them in Italy - they even shared the same bed some nights because she doesn't like being alone, but they were not in a sexual relationship. As far as I know they had some kind of ancient history but now they were just really close like brother and sister.

    Anyhow, after Roberto all of a sudden sleeps with this girl while my target is away from him for the first time in seven years in France, she suddenly gets super jealous and starts thinking, "oh I must be in love with Roberto if I feel this way". So she runs back over to Italy a week ago to tell him so and now they're back together again in some sort of relationship. I didn't let this put me off though, as I was hoping I could turn the tables on him. Also she was always expressing reservations about him to me and always asking for my opinion - at times I thought she was fishing for me to say "no, the guy is bad news" or whatever. I knew her feelings for him were genuine and she wasn't just trying to make me jealous because I'd been reading her emails (snicker). So I was always careful when boyfriend smashing not to be too obvious, but I knew I had free reign to do it and it wasn't just some kind of test on her part.

    Her biggest reservations about him were interesting - she said he was not her type physically so sex was awkward, and she said he was a cold proud guy who had difficulty expressing emotion etc. But he was the sweetest guy she'd ever met. Basically he would do anything for her - A bit AFC I thought, but it obviously worked for her.

  7. #7

    A fascinating FR.

    Besides being hot, did she have much to commend her? It doesn't sound like it. Allowing a man inside whom she considers hideous in and then proposing he massage her is just not cool. Whether a jealousy tool or not, she's being a manipulative prick-tease.

    There were a few things I would have done differently, but I'm not sure that it would have been better.

  8. #8

    Quote Originally Posted by crh View Post
    A fascinating FR.

    Besides being hot, did she have much to commend her? It doesn't sound like it. Allowing a man inside whom she considers hideous in and then proposing he massage her is just not cool. Whether a jealousy tool or not, she's being a manipulative prick-tease.

    There were a few things I would have done differently, but I'm not sure that it would have been better.
    Yeah, she was really attractive, maybe even a 9. She'd done modelling work for a cosmetics company but her height prevented her from doing much else. But I kind of liked that she was short. It went with her personality which was very childlike, cute, fun and playful a lot of the time, but at other times deeply thoughtful and complex.

    She was a philosophy student, she'd obtained a mastered, and that really appealed to me. She was also extremely cultured with an appreciation of art, music, world cinema, psychology, anthropology and so forth. She liked talking about her own life problems. While that might put a lot of people off, again I kind of liked it because I have an interest in psychology too so we had a lot of ideas to exchange there.

    Her downsides were that she was very moody, she has a tendency to throw tantrums and give you the cold shoulder for seemingly acceptable things, and she's quite judgemental with a tendency to see things in black and white as either good or bad. On top of that I sensed that she liked to use people - I think she strung me along for instance largely just because I could help her with her career and her English. So I think she definitely had a manipulative streak. Whether she was consciously aware of that or not I'm not sure.

    I think all in all she has a kind of charm about her that makes you fall for her. When I first arrived last week the game was on and I didn't really care much about her, just the conquest. But as the week progressed I found myself being emotionally reeled in. It's something about the combination of her innocence, elegance, playfulness, strength, intelligence, and even perhaps her neediness which triggers a desire to father her that I find attractive.

  9. #9
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    Based on your description, she sounds like an unmedicated bi-polar (formerly "manic depressive") or borderline personality disorder. Someone who engages others in intense emotional connections one moment and pushes them away the next. Which is what your initial report seemed to indicate.

    Good people to stay away from.
    When I am writing in red, it's as an Attraction Forums Admin. When I write in normal text, it's just me.

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