She doesn't want a relationship/LJBF

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  1. She doesn't want a relationship/LJBF

    Hi everybody!

    This is my first post in here. I'm writing you guys because I need some advices/opinions on a fucked up situation I'm in (apology for my english, not my first language). Be as hard as you can because I'm here for a reality check not for some candies.

    So this is the story:

    Exactly six months ago I was approached by a woman I knew already a bit before, very cultivated, beautiful, busy, successful in what she does and rich (old family money). I'm 33 she's 35. She's an 8,5 I consider myself an 8 but for some reason before her showing interest in me I thought she was out of my league. The thing was that back then I was recovering from a very painful breakup with my former GF (7 years together) and she was going through something similar (one year relationship in which she invested a lot but ended in an ugly way).

    Since the beginning and for the entire first month of our "dating", she was super into me and flirty: texting all the time about possible things, trips, vacations we could do in the future and so on, planning quick dates, movies and everything, making allusions to possible positive outcome of our situation... but given that 1) I was basically emotionally unavailable at the time, 2) I had my rebound alarm super-high, 3) I was surprised about her interest in me (she's very popular in my environment), 4) I wasn't sure if she was my kind of girl I judged it better to take it very slow and never kissed or kino her. I thought ok, cool... a new friend who's helping me to recover from my previous LTR.

    So basically things got a bit colder on her side, meaning that she wasn't throwing herself at me as in the first 3/4 weeks of "our thing" but still the situation developed in a sort-of-very special-friendship: with texting and teasing all the time from both sides and so on and also a talk around mid-january about "what are we doing" in which she admitted she had an interest in me but she was ok with taking things slow and that I was the only person she was texting and seeing so often.

    We went like this for months and as I got to know her better I realized that she was actually very funny, smart, sensitive and sweet... so eventually I've started to develop feelings for her.

    Still since I valued also our friendship I haven't acted on her. Plus: in the last three months jobs and traveling kept both of us very busy so we managed to see each others six times in total, mostly occasional dinners in which we sometimes went back to talking about "what we are now/what we could become in the future" and she never completely ruled out the possibility that we could be more than friends. Still nothing happened because... don't know... we were perhaps afraid of messing things up and it never felt kind of right. I always told myself "time will come when it will feel spontaneous and it will be great".

    However...everytime after she left the dinner she was always the first texting me within minutes to tell me how much she enjoyed spending time with me and liked me a lot in a kind of ambiguous way.

    Fast forward to last week: we were both at a big party and both very drunk (we never got drunk together before – she's not big on drinks – and this also perhaps hasn't helped us to break the ice before) and after a while I told her how much I liked her (exact words and big mistake: "i might be A BIT in love with you") to which she responded deep-kissing me for an hour.

    I wouldn't have given much importance to that thing, though (never trust intoxicated actions), if it wasn't that the night after I've met her to another big party (we were both abroad for a kermesse... so basically there was a party every night with more or less the same people invited). This time we were both just a bit tipsy (or even less than that) and I just caressed her, ready to leave with a normal kiss on the cheeks, but she again first hugged me and then started to kiss me on the neck and eventually we made out again but this time way less wild and more intimate, basically like a couple. I was very happy about all this happening – almost relieved – and her eyes were totally sending the same message.

    We both shared apartments with other people so there was no room for sex that night but we left each other with the promise that she would have invited me this last week-end to her seaside place. Imagine how I felt when i left the party. With a feeling of "great! after six months of doubts this is happening". The day after she sent me a few sweet texts while i was flying back to my city. She, on the other hand, stayed another day at the kermesse and then she went silent for a couple of days: no texts etc... a bit weird but maybe just super-busy, I thought.

    Unfortunately she wasn't just super-busy because – after a couple of days – in a very decent manner she stated that she needed to talk and there it happened: she basically said 1) that after the kisses she wasn't anymore comfortable with the idea of spending a week-end at her place together, 2) that kissing me it had been a mistake because, after all this time, she's not sure about her actual feelings for me (friends? more than friends?) and so that breaking the physical barrier between us hadn't been a great idea on her/both sides, 3) that however she really likes me, that yes she wanted to kiss me of course – she didn't feel it as a mistake at that moment... it looked like one afterwards – but now she's confused, and that what she mostly feels now it's that she's fine with what we have and had so far as friend, 4) that me throwing the "love" word kind of scared her because she doesn't already feel the same level of attachment, 5) and also that, being busy and happy with her life as a single woman, she doesn't want to compromise on a serious relationship with anyone and she certainly doesn't want to take a chance with a person so important for her life.

    I've replied that the "love" thing was a drunk shortcut for conveying the idea that i have a strong interest in her but also I'm not there yet (which is true), that yes I also have my doubts about we as a couple but that I'm not the kind of person who (besides shortly after a breakup) think about relationships in terms of on/off, or something I want or I don't based on the moment of my life.

    The next day however she started texting me again like nothing happened. At first I was trying to act a bit cold hoping she got that I felt it inappropriate and too soon after but then, since she wasn't getting it, I just plainly told her that I don't feel like we can pretend nothing happened or changed in our relationship/friendship and that I prefer to move our chatting from a daily routine to a more casual thing.

    All in all: now I'm very beat because I feel like i've lost both a potential GF, a friend and a kind of weird but also entertaining relationship that helped me a lot with moving on from my previous breakup. What I've clear in my mind is that I don't want to be her doormat or emotional tampon. She set her boundaries, I will set mine but I don't want to give up on her entirely – be it as a friend (although I know it will take time to recover that thing) or as a potential partner. So what I've decided to do is to rarefy contacts with her for a while to give her time and space and then see if after a while it's possible to frame myself differently with her. In the meantime I will date another girl I like – not as this one though – in order to avoid oneitis.

    At the same time I'm also wondering: let's say it's not just something about me or the way I/we screwed our sexual potential over these months, but that she also suffers of a more general fear of commitment and lack of trust in men and relationships... wouldn't be harmful to do so, wouldn't make her think "I knew it. It was nothing special, just another unreliable guy who was actually just in for the pussy (and in her case, to make her even more skeptical, she could also add "and for my money)".

    I really like this woman and I want to find a way to salvage our relationship (be it as friend or more) in the long run, possibly without hurting myself in the process. Do you think it's possible or I/we really screwed things too bad in all these "almost-teenagers" months?



  2. Damn that's long.

    I read it anyway. I can't say exactly what to do. The reason is because game is fluid and anything is possible. I saw a guy actually pick up a girl wearing sweaty gym clothes while eating a garlic clove. True story.

    So, a quick recap. She was into you, but you didn't react to it. She's got money, and is pretty well known. While at a party, and drinking, you two started making out. Then at another party you guys made out again. Then she had second thoughts about the whole thing. She came back and you did a freeze out. Now you are going to decide to date another chick while holding her at arms length and becoming scarce.

    Let's start at where these make out sessions happened. At parties. Now keeping in mind she has money, and is well known, and she was somewhat drunk the first time she probably didn't want other people thinking she was a slut. Harsh words I know, but bear with me.

    Guys have a natural fear of being made fun of if they get blown out of a set and labeled a beta. Girls have a natural fear of being labeled a slut if they hook up with a guy. See where I'm coming from? Money, popular, party, guy, making out = slut. Not for guys, other girls labeling her. First night probably not, second night probably some same people there, and she's doing it again. When you look at it from this point of view it somewhat reframes the whole interaction. Which makes her flip on the following day a bit more understandable.

    Now, as I see it, she was still coming back even after so called mistake. Anyone else reading this take notes. If the girl is still there she is interested. If you are in set and she hasn't walked off, hasn't told you to fuck off, or hasn't called the cops, stay in the set. Remain persistent and continue to calibrate.

    From what I see you didn't calibrate and gave her an ultimatum and then froze her out. Freeze out's really don't work, and have very limited use. You want to cool, not freeze. Also, at the beginning you let her make all the plans, so she was leading the relationship. You should have been leading, or at least doing 50% of the planning yourself. So these are the big mistakes you need to correct, as I see it. Now don't go groveling and apologizing for your stance, that would be beta. However, you need to acknowledge her feelings, and reframe so that you can take the lead. If she wants to take time off from make out sessions, fuck it, give it to her. Test her interest with a little kino and see if she gives it back. Check her compliance. Build the tension and see how she reacts.

    Actually the more I think about it this seems like a cross between an LMR and a shit test. I'm not there, I don't know her, and even as long as the post is I'm sure small details are missing that you may not have seen or picked up on.

    Either way, you need to set standards. Real standards about the type of woman you want - detailed. Again - detailed. Then have her prove to you she can meet those standards. You go to her place and see she has laundry on the sofa "I thought you were better than that." Watch how fast she tries to validate herself.
    She doesn't call, or shows up late "You seemed more put together/considerate of others." Then watch her try to justify and rise to your standard.
    This is assuming she is still showing some type of interest and hasn't gone with rejecting your ultimatum.

    Like I said, game is highly fluid. Things can change on a moment's notice. Anything, literally anything can happen. You just have to be able to read it as it comes. The suggestions above are a few options out of literally millions of possibilities. But, there is no clear cut answer. The only real thing I can tell you is to get back in there, test her interest, and then go from there.

  3. Hey Knight2170,

    first and foremost thanks for your reply, for patiently reading the whole thing and for your opinions on the situation. I've found them very helpful and considerate.

    I agree with you that the situation is not so hopeless. News are: she wasn't able to let three days go without texting me that "i miss hearing from you", to which i've replied "me too but i don't think it would be good nor honest to pretend nothing happened". I agree that i shouldn't leave the set but i'm also sure that if i keep giving her the attention she craves for (i.e. texting a lot) nothing will change in her mind.

    I wan't to break the "texting" pattern and try to see her more often IRL. It's not a mind game i'm playing but an attempt to bring our "whatever" into a "more real/less virtual" place, which is exactly the problem with this woman: she's very busy, she travels a lot all the time and since she doesn't have to concern herself with making a living, basically the job she created for herself is more like a passion than a job (i'm also lucky enough to do a job i like but i also have to compromise on some aspects of it to pay my bills).

    Given all this I think that really the situation boils down to it: she is somehow needy for attentions from a person she likes and respects to the point of admiration (her word not mine), but at the same time she is independent enough (which i like after my last relationship that was a bit on the co-dependent side of things) that has to be super-sure on what she feels about someone and how trustworthy that someone is before letting him unbalance the very nice life she enjoys.

    So i think that my only hope here it's to show her that i'm both independent and strong enough to be willing to walk away and not clinging on her texts validation, but also that i'm open and flexible enough to not holding a grudge after her first rejection and willing to meet her in person whenever we like (preferably out of my initiatives, as you wisely pointed out).

    Ultimately i also think that we both need some time to think things over. Perhaps I also have to really, really, really figure out my feelings for her because i might found out that, atm, i also see her as a friend more than anything else (but, of course, i have to be sure that i'm not tricking myself just for the sake of keeping her in my life, which would be a recipe for disaster), all in all, before these kisses i was more unnerved by the curiosity of knowing if we were strictly plationic or not (answer: yes and no, at this point) than by a struggling feeling of wanting more.

  4. Cnsk,

    Good to see your working through this.

    I know where your coming from. I was in an LTR when she decided to end everything after 25 years. The next few things may help you decide figure things out.

    Write down in super detail what qualities you want in a girl. The more detailed the better. You said you like an independent woman. What else? What things do you not want?

    Next, write down what type of man you are. The specific way you want to do this is in an "I am, I am not" format.
    "I am the type of guy who places high value on friends, but I am not the type of guy who will sacrifice his own integrity to save a friendship."
    Here you show your values while showing your limits. By doing this you really work on exactly who you are, and can convey this in no uncertain terms to the women and people you meet.

    By doing both you can be "super-sure" if she (or any woman) is who you really want for a romantic relationship.

    With this woman you may find she just wants a stable guy she can depend on when everyone else is running in and out of her life. You may find she doesn't fully meet your standards of the type of woman you want to get involved with (though the idea of that type of woman is tempting).

    It's up to you. If you really want her be persistent with her. If not friendzone her and move on with your life. Even the very best pick-up artist doesn't get every girl.

    Best to ya. Either way it goes be the man you want to be. The rest will fall into place.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cnsk View Post
    Heyfrom you", to which i've replied "me too but i don't think it would be good nor honest to pretend nothing happened". I agree that i shouldn't leave the set but i'm also sure that if i keep giving her the attention she craves for (i.e. texting a lot) nothing will change in her mind.
    Not bad.

    Just remember that women's behaviour is emotionally driven. If you bring it out and make it blunt... you're taking a gamble. Once you demand a woman think logically about having sex with you, their default behaviour is to find excuses NOT to do it.

    I wan't to break the "texting" pattern and try to see her more often IRL. It's not a mind game i'm playing but an attempt to bring our "whatever" into a "more real/less virtual" place, which is exactly the problem with this woman: she's very busy, she travels a lot all the time and since she doesn't have to concern herself with making a living, basically the job she created for herself is more like a passion than a job
    This is a very smart attitude. Once you've kissed a girl, you're in that delicate zone where her emotions can swing either way. Texting should be relegated to barely more than logistics. Trying to maintain attraction through text will not work, because you need to keep the attraction building at the physical level.

    A very busy woman can be tough to deal with, but here's the thing: the busiest women will absolutely 100% guaranteed find private time to be with a guy they're REALLY interested in.

    If a woman is not accepting your invitations to hang out, and she's not suggesting alternate invitations, then her interest level is just not that high. Treat her appropriately.

    So i think that my only hope here it's to show her [blah blah blah blah]
    This is a stupid attitude. As soon as you revolve your life around showing a woman something then you've lost her. (Unless she's a nutcase addicted to adoration, in which case you don't want her anyways).

    Time to flip the script and decide what YOU want. Then enjoy your time with her but have a purpose: to discover if she is good enough for YOUR STANDARDS.

    I also see her as a friend more than anything else (but, of course, i have to be sure that i'm not tricking myself just for the sake of keeping her in my life, which would be a recipe for disaster), all in all, before these kisses i was more unnerved by the curiosity of knowing if we were strictly plationic or not (answer: yes and no, at this point) than by a struggling feeling of wanting more.
    Dude it's not complex. Being "unsure" about people is why we date them. To explore that possibility.

    If you're curious, then date her with the passion of a man who wants to discover what she's really like as a lover. The trick is to give yourself permission to end it if you realize you guys are NOT a match.

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