An MLTR Framing Discussion

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  1. #1
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    An MLTR Framing Discussion

    OK, so I have the kind of problems I want to have. All my problems in life are those of success from my career, my hobby, PUA...
    I'm working the newbie mission very slowly because I'm too busy dating! Now, I'm only dating two women right now, and one is semi-local so I've only been seeing her every couple of weeks as we're busy. That part is okay.
    The local one, I've escalated pretty quickly and after only three dates I'm close to the boyfriend zone, although my schedule has kept things to only 1-2 times a week so far. We've both got things going on this month that will keep it like that for a little while at least. It's really weird, because she's blogging about it, so I really know how in I am. I mean, aside from her dragging me to the bedroom because the bed is more comfortable than the couch and intentionally wearing funny panties with things written on them for me to read.
    So I'm okay with MLTRs, and think that's what I want, but this is really virgin territory for me compared to my past. I'm not lying to anyone, or planning to, but the topic has not come up and I'm unsure if I should bring it up explicitly.
    So I'm asking for general advice and discussion about when and how to frame relationships that arise from dating situations. It seems wrong to bring it up too early or too late, so what is right? I'm thinking right now to just assume it as my own frame, be congruent with it, and play it as it comes up.
    Not too much of the basic material out there seems to cover this.
    I'm also wondering if this is more of a problem in my own head than in reality, but I've had one situation in the past with two women who both wanted me and there were ultimatums and lost friendships there. Being much less of an AFC now, and believing in my ability to hook women, I'm less worried. A little less worried, anyway.
    I'm comforted by the fact there there are mPUAs out there who only worry about how to frame threesomes, and MLTRs are not too difficult in general.



  2. #2
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    I think it is safe to assume that until she brings it up, it is assumed you are dating others. If you are framing your sarges properly, then she already knows implicitly that you are a high value man. It doesn't take a brilliant girl to figure out that if you act as though you have other options, that you indeed do have other options.
    The uneasy feeling we get regarding full-disclosure is an AFC habit. It is the result of us internalizing over time the socially conditioned rhetoric that the mainstream would have us believe is somehow tied to honesty and integrity. It's total bullshit. It's completely unneccessary.
    When a woman decides she wants you all to herself, there is little you can do to change her mind. Telling her she can't have you to herself before she has decided she even wants that, only makes you look like a player and makes her lose respect for you. When she is ready, she'll inform you either directly or indirectly.
    The best way to deal with this is to prolong the transformation by limiting the amount of time spent together or in contact. Make your interactions high quality, but limit their frequency. If the time comes where she lets you know she wants you to herself, tell her that if you were in a place where you wanted that kind of relationship, she would be an ideal woman. Validate her, then explain that you understand is she wishes to end it, but that you will miss her and all the fun you have together. You need to stress the fact that although you'd rather it didn't end, you're prepared to deal with it, because you respect and admire her.
    While you are saying that you will move on if she decides to end it, you are implying that you have other options and that it will only affect you briefly. If there's one thing all women want in a relationship, it's NOT to be inconsequential.
    You may be able to keep her as an MLTR for a long while after this. Maybe not. If you do, expect her to slowly withdraw her feelings over time. It is only a matter of time until she tires of being single and opts out, despite her feelings. We can't blame women for this, they are programmed for monogamy. We should take it as a compliment that they defy those impulses for as long as they do.
    Even serially polyamorous men like Hypnotica have a rotation going. Women come in and drop out. Some stay a long time, some for just a while. But he respects them and they respect him. This is because he truly values them and the relationship.
    I don't know if this helps, but I hope that it does. Don't worry too much about it. These MLTRs will come and go in due time. The best any PUA can do is make it last as long as it feels good for everybody invloved. Sooner or later we must let go of everything. The universe is expanding, changing, shifting. Even small pieces of it like you and me can't help but emulate it.
    EDIT: This probably belongs in Relationships. But it will stay on the Main Board until it has received sufficient exposure before I move it there.
    Love,
    Rain

    "In matters of the heart, it's the heart that matters."

  3. #3

    Tell the truth from the beginning.
    From what i can tell you may have lost that chance.
    Right now i am in a weird situation because two of my main girls who we all use to have a good time together intimately clashed and they dont want anything to do with each other, The third one is caught in the middle between them both hearing both sides. It is tough. So tough that i have cut all the others away to try to mend the three. however my gut feeling is that it is not going to happen.
    i told the two that i am going to cut everyone so everyone knows im not taking sides. They all know i care for them but when they start running you with drama games over. I will start fresh and once again will have learned from the experience. The bummer part is i love both and really dig the third however this is not the path i want to have created. Lets see if it works out. Remember it is a delicate balencing point.
    Good luck.
    Hypnotica

  4. #4

    Quote Originally Posted by Rain
    I think it is safe to assume that until she brings it up, it is assumed you are dating others. If you are framing your sarges properly, then she already knows implicitly that you are a high value man. It doesn't take a brilliant girl to figure out that if you act as though you have other options, that you indeed do have other options.
    The uneasy feeling we get regarding full-disclosure is an AFC habit. It is the result of us internalizing over time the socially conditioned rhetoric that the mainstream would have us believe is somehow tied to honesty and integrity. It's total bullshit. It's completely unneccessary.
    When a woman decides she wants you all to herself, there is little you can do to change her mind. Telling her she can't have you to herself before she has decided she even wants that, only makes you look like a player and makes her lose respect for you. When she is ready, she'll inform you either directly or indirectly.
    The best way to deal with this is to prolong the transformation by limiting the amount of time spent together or in contact. Make your interactions high quality, but limit their frequency. If the time comes where she lets you know she wants you to herself, tell her that if you were in a place where you wanted that kind of relationship, she would be an ideal woman. Validate her, then explain that you understand is she wishes to end it, but that you will miss her and all the fun you have together. You need to stress the fact that although you'd rather it didn't end, you're prepared to deal with it, because you respect and admire her.
    While you are saying that you will move on if she decides to end it, you are implying that you have other options and that it will only affect you briefly. If there's one thing all women want in a relationship, it's NOT to be inconsequential.
    You may be able to keep her as an MLTR for a long while after this. Maybe not. If you do, expect her to slowly withdraw her feelings over time. It is only a matter of time until she tires of being single and opts out, despite her feelings. We can't blame women for this, they are programmed for monogamy. We should take it as a compliment that they defy those impulses for as long as they do.
    Even serially polyamorous men like Hypnotica have a rotation going. Women come in and drop out. Some stay a long time, some for just a while. But he respects them and they respect him. This is because he truly values them and the relationship.
    I don't know if this helps, but I hope that it does. Don't worry too much about it. These MLTRs will come and go in due time. The best any PUA can do is make it last as long as it feels good for everybody invloved. Sooner or later we must let go of everything. The universe is expanding, changing, shifting. Even small pieces of it like you and me can't help but emulate it.
    EDIT: This probably belongs in Relationships. But it will stay on the Main Board until it has received sufficient exposure before I move it there.
    Best of?

  5. #5
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    Great, great posts guys...really helped my situation out a lot too...hope you get it sorted mate.
    I can see both sides and its a difficult one whether to be honest and frank about it from the start, ignore it and wait until it comes up OR...as Masters sad, make your value so high in your sarges that it is obvious that you already have female attention elsewhere....in my opinion this is the best way (a stitch in time and all that) to go...
    hope you get what you want anyway pal
    Sponge

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the input. Rain, very good post -- I'm going to try to internalize those ideas. Being divorced now for almost a year, and getting my head right about it finally a few months ago, I don't want to jump into a serious long-term monogamous relationship again unless the woman is so fantastic she makes me change my mind.
    Yes, the thread probably belongs in relationships. Move it when appropriate.
    I have no problems with the semi-local woman, since I only see her every 1-2 weeks and talk on the phone a little more often. She knows I'm high value and have lots of other things going on.
    The local woman -- she knew me a little before the divorce, knows about the divorce, and came to a party I threw where I played host solo. She's projecting things into a relationship, and I probably should find a way to bring that up and frame it soon. At least she asks when she gets to see me again each time, and doesn't assume it.
    To make the discussion more general and more useful, while I can see how to frame things immediately from the get go while sarging (e.g., include DHV stories involving you out with other women), there are venues and day sarging situations where it may be harder to pull this off. Maybe not, though? Some of those DHV stories ought to still play in a variety of environments.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sponge
    I can see both sides and its a difficult one whether to be honest and frank about it from the start, ignore it and wait until it comes up OR...as Masters sad, make your value so high in your sarges that it is obvious that you already have female attention elsewhere....in my opinion this is the best way (a stitch in time and all that) to go...
    Incidentally, waiting for her to bring it up, in the way that I referred to, doesn not mean ignore the issue. It simply means that preoccupying yourself with an issue that is not yet a real issue can be unhealthy for you and the relationship. However, one should still be aware of the situation.
    Make no efforts to "explain" yourself to her. It will be seen as justification and deliberately cruel. Equally important is making no efforts to hide your involvement with other women. Most women are fine with you seeing other girls if you're casually seeing each other. But those same women DO NOT want to hear about it from you.
    Even subtle implication can be seen as an attack on her value as a woman. The best way to convey that you are seeing others without seeming deliberate is when she asks why you are busy on Friday, when you are making plans with her for Saturday. You simply answer her. "I have other plans." Women know what this means. They won't ask you to elaborate until they decide they want you to themselves. Which goes back to what I said before about indirectly informing you of her intentions.
    Something I think we tend to conveniently forget is that HBs are often seeing others as well. Don't assume that she isn't, assume that she is. Even if she's not sleeping with them, she is answering their phone calls, flirting, and blowing them off, just like she is to you. When she decides to make you hers exclusively, she keeps these other guys on the backburner, just in case you don't work out. It's not as if a high-value woman is waiting by the phone fellas.
    Love,
    Rain

    "In matters of the heart, it's the heart that matters."

  8. #8

    Great Thread!

    I am currently trying to establish an OPEN relationship with an ex girlf. Things are slightly different, But this thread has really helped me.
    I can Identify 2 things that I have already done, and they keep working. When She brings up the conversation, I make it clear to her that I respect her, and dont want to loose her, but If she cant Handle it, its her problem and We have to cut things off. But it would be a shame because we enjoy each other soo much.
    (I say the following, and I believe it) I tell her that I would not want her getting hurt. She back pedals, calms down and says we should not end things.
    However, this is the first time I attempt this, and still have many cuestions. I have my doubts as this had been my first serious girlfriend whom I had met before begining this mission, I fear my feelings for her will slow me down, and that if we get accostumed to the open relationship that our feelings will discipate.

  9. Need some MLTR too

    Heya. I could use a couple tips too, cuz I have 2 great MLTRs going, but adding the 2nd has caused some drama in the 1st. I made alot of dumb mistakes, but it doesn't seem unsalvageable (maybe I'm wrong).
    * MLTR#1 - Agreed with me that we were casual... treated me like I'm high value enough to deal with. The one "demand" she made was that I should tell her before another relationship went sexual. [seemed reasonable at the time, and I'm always honest, so I went for it. Perhaps I should not have jumped through this hoop (??)]. One other detail, I've spent way too much time with her, so she conveniently forgets she's not my GF!
    * MLTR#2 - I detailed the recent Fclose in this FR: [ http://www.theattractionforums.com/f...ad.php?t=18856 ]So far this one is perfect. She's fine seeing me once per week, knows there are other girls but doesn't want to know details.
    So now after the Fclose with MLTR#2, I was obligated to tell MLTR#1 about it because of our deal. Did not go over well to say the least. On the plus side, she's searching for a way to stay on the hook but maintain some dignity (GUYS HELP ME FIND IT!!!!) But now she's trying to force me to promise I won't see other girls (I can't!!!!). She doesn't even seem to care if I'm telling the truth just wants to hear it (at one point I said "sure, sure, whatever you say" just so I could go to sleep).
    I don't want to start lying to anyone [for one thing, it's too much work ] I've read the other threads on MLTR, and gotten some good stuff. I'm prepared to do the strongframed "I would hate to see you go" approach (kinda have but need to be explicit), but there are other things I need to correct.
    QUESTIONS:
    * I now know it was a huge mistake agreeing to the "Tell me when you fuck someone" deal. How should I have handled that when she proposed it?
    * Why is she so fixated on "That other whore". I even reminded her, that there are OTHER women I'm dating too. I explained that dumping the one I've just seen naked wouldn't fix the relationship from her perspective, but she doesn't see it that way.
    * Are there ways to help her feel good about our relationship? She mentioned several times the idea that being with me when I was sexual with someone else makes her a fool.
    Please comment/ask if you notice anything else.
    fup

  10. #10
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    Rain, as reliable as ever, is unfortunately away at the mo. So I'll get this one (",)

    Quote Originally Posted by fup
    * MLTR#1 - Agreed with me that we were casual...
    Hey fup...
    casual is a non-specific descriptive that just means, not serious. Right there, casual is the framework that AFCs use, are used to hearing & they chuck it around without a care.
    Separate yourself from that world & move forward with the times. A pride of lions contains lionesses that all accept the prime alpha, because he is the best candidate for the survivability of the their cubs AND the pride survives because of his presence. We are not animals yet there is much to learn from their world.
    I believe there is a lion in all of us.
    Try reframing casual: in fact, no, just avoid it with anything MLTR unless you're discussing door policies & your attire.
    This is no script; I’m just showing you here my way of things. It’s not the best way, nor is it the only way, it’s just another way. If you can make some part of it work for you then great, feed from my mad Harlequin-Jitsu.
    This works I believe because simply by saying this kind of thing to her, you clearly respect her. She has not slept with you yet, she really wants to & if anyone has shown any LMR then it’s you, until you have conveyed this:
    “You’re a great girl, & I love being with you, I respect you & I’d love for us to just move forward where this is heading naturally… & you know that I have other girls in my life.? (Perhaps she nods, maybe looks a little disheartened… this is not a surprise to her because you already told her)
    “I want what you want, to be together, I cannot be anything but truthful with you. So I want to make sure before this goes further that you can deal with that, because if you can’t then we cannot be together, because I cannot hurt you, emotionally, mentally, physically.?
    You might think that a killer blow before you’ve even been with her & I have lost plenty of girls at this stage, some that I really liked. And that sucks. Can you deal with that? Because let me assure you, the girls that stay, the emotionally strong ones, they make it all worth it.
    There are surprises also, some really good ones: of the girls I have apparently lost, some, return… calling me out of the blue. And having thought about things decide that they can deal with it.
    Others I have accepted I wouldn’t ever see again… until that is, they approach me in a bar & ask me straight out if my ‘offer’ is still open.
    Yeah, this life is good. Just live by these three rules. Honesty, Awareness & Responsibility. Be honest that something isn’t serving you &/or other people. Be aware of everything that you do & how it’s affected people, good or bad… & be responsible enough to put things right if you do mess up.
    It’s okay to mess up. We learn best when we screw up. Welcome failure, because that’s one failure you’ll never repeat when you are on the verge of getting what you desire. Response-ability… how you respond to situations that your highest consciousness throws at you. How you deal with people, living, loving. You have at your disposal one of the most dangerous weapons on the planet, the human mind. How you use it can ruin the world & it can make the world better… it can also get you lots of girlfriends that you all treat equally & all of whom love you right back for as long as you respond well.

    Quote Originally Posted by fup
    ‘The one "demand" she made was that I should tell her before another relationship went sexual. [seemed reasonable at the time, and I'm always honest, so I went for it. Perhaps I should not have jumped through this hoop (??)]. One other detail, I've spent way too much time with her, so she conveniently forgets she's not my GF!

    Way too much time? Maybe. Time spent doing, saying things that aren't a true expression of the reality you want to create? Deifintely.
    Maybe this girl is young, physically & emotionally. Older women are usually more accepting of the MLTR because having more life experience often means they’re emotionally strong & mature enough to deal with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fup
    MLTR#2 - So far this one is perfect. She's fine seeing me once per week, knows there are other girls but doesn't want to know details.
    And so far she’s little more than a FB, a girl you just have sex with unless you’re relating to her three bodies, physical, mental, emotional… are you pleasing all three bodies or just the one? How you stimulate one effects them all.
    Quote Originally Posted by fup
    So now after the Fclose with MLTR#2, I was obligated to tell MLTR#1 about it because of our deal. Did not go over well to say the least. On the plus side, she's searching for a way to stay on the hook but maintain some dignity.
    The next time you're planning on cultivating an MLTR, make sure that she knows you respect her. I am a brutally honest person. Brutal because the truth really hurts sometimes. It's a double edged sword & if you wield it around those that aren't used to your frame you're going to really upset some girls. There are obviously many differences between guys that cheat on girls & guys that have established successful MLTRs. I can think of a few: before I've even slept with one girl she will know I'm seeing another. It's not like I'm surprising her with the news. Yet she also knows that she's not just some other girl. Because I have already demonstrated that I value her. No matter how much high-value I convey, I reciprocate & do what I can to elicit a DEV from her, a demonstration of equal value. I make her feel as though she is my equal because that is THE ABSOLUTE REALITY.
    Guys: though she may be stepping into our world, our reality, she still has her own which we must never change without her consent.
    All the freedom & free will I have been given, I will live with every thought, word & action as a statement of my freedom, love, truth, all that malarkey: & I will never resrict the freedom, love, truth & malarkey of other people.
    Say what you mean, mean what you say, say what you do & do what you say.
    Keeping all the promises you can, rainbow kiss with the whole spectrum of girls...
    I recommend the same outlook to you all.

    Quote Originally Posted by fup
    Now she's trying to force me to promise I won't see other girls (I can't!!!!). She doesn't even seem to care if I'm telling the truth just wants to hear it (at one point I said "sure, sure, whatever you say" just so I could go to sleep).
    That's another place where you screwed the pooch. Erase & rewind, learn & move on. You could try & start again, reframe it all but you'll just be fighting yourselves in two, when you should be unifying as one.
    Quote Originally Posted by fup
    I now know it was a huge mistake agreeing to the "Tell me when you fuck someone" deal. How should I have handled that when she proposed it?
    The mistake was making any deals when the bargain has already been sold: i.e. you slept with her before you made any deal. Start as you mean to go on.
    Quote Originally Posted by fup
    Why is she so fixated on "That other whore". I even reminded her, that there are OTHER women I'm dating too. I explained that dumping the one I've just seen naked wouldn't fix the relationship from her perspective, but she doesn't see it that way.
    You chose a poor target for your MLTR, she’s not emotionally calibrated to deal with such an arrangement, this is likely the first time she’s even met someone trying to establish a relationship knowing that he’s already in other relationships. When you have what Hypnotica has, a frame of one who can handle MLTRs you can attract girls who can deal with being in an MLTR... imagine everyone having a couple of angels with them, & people's angels can talkt o other people's angels. They all hold conference to best guide their charges to the people & places where we can satiate ourselves according to our desires. Also, bi & bi-curious girls are often better at being in MLTRs for obvious reasons, though do not think that the reality will be that much easier to create. Also, when you live your reality you convey it silently to all. What you think you create, what you create you experience, what you experince you know, what you know you convey in your frame... angels or no angels.
    And she doesn’t ‘see it that way’ because you failed to establish from the outset how things were going to be. It takes time all this. You can rush it, & you can cheat time by creating the reality around you of people that have known each other much longer, but you will only get out of the arrangement what you invest in it. Put shit in there, you get shit out.

    Quote Originally Posted by fup
    Are there ways to help her feel good about our relationship?
    Doing what couples in relationships do only better. Going away together, hanging with each other’s friends, even inviting all your LTR girls out to the same party... That’s not impossible in your future but it’s not going to work without the right foundation, not ever.
    You could end it, because you fucked the dog on this one. Sorry to break it to you. I advise you to run it out as a regular thing, abandoning the idea of MLTR for now. Next time Gadget, next time.
    Women are the most complex creatures on Earth, & they are the most beautiful to me, the most fascinating, no matter how many damn Lions you show me.
    [CENTER][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="Black"]H[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"]a[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkRed"]r[/COLOR][COLOR="Purple"][COLOR="Navy"]l[/COLOR]e[/COLOR][COLOR="Black"]q[/COLOR][COLOR="DarkOrange"]u[/COLOR][COLOR="SeaGreen"]i[/COLOR][COLOR="Black"]n[/COLOR]: Weapon of mass seduction[/SIZE] [/FONT][/CENTER]
    [CENTER][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]When you refuse to accept what you cannot change: this is trauma.

    When you decide to change what you cannot accept: this is r[B]evolution[/B].[/CENTER]
    [/SIZE] [/FONT]

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