Discuss Sinn & Future Bootcamp - NYC, Sept 2007 (With Fader, Braddock & Big Business) at the Love Systems Reviews within the The Attraction Forums. Dating Advice.; Sinn & Future Bootcamp - NYC, Sept 2007 (With Fader, Braddock & Big Business)
Sinn & Future Bootcamp - NYC, Sept 2007 (With Fader, Braddock & Big Business)
This was absolutely terrific. I can't thank you guys enough for all the hard work you put in and the information you gave me. I feel like I'm no longer going to be flailing around wondering what to do, or what I am doing wrong. Future and Sin both presented the material (and it amazes me how much of it there is!) in a clear and entertaining manner - I really feel like I have a good grasp on the "big picture" in terms of what I need to do. I would say to anyone considering the seminar-only (which I was at one point) - pay the extra money and do the field work as well. It's really important to get out there and practice and have the guys watching you practice and giving you pointers! I felt like all five of you guys took a personal interest in me, and were really good about helping me out and trying to fine-tune what I am doing. I've been practicing since then (not as much as I should, but more than the zero practice I was getting before), and I can feel myself improving. You were all right about the notes as well; I tried to be scribbling notes all the time, and I've referred back to them since, as things suddenly "clicked." It really helps. To any students: like they say, break your wrist taking notes. You get a ton of information that isn't covered in Magic Bullets or any of the forums (at least as far as I've seen; I haven't scoured them thoroughly yet).
I am not singling people out for special mention because all five of you were great. Again, Sin and Future are great instructors, and gave me very good advice in the field. Braddock, I really appreciated how you took a special interest in me the first night, went over routines with me, and encouraged me. That helped tremendously. Thank you. Fader, Big Business, you were both excellent at helping me fine-tune my game, your pointers were very good.
Bootcamp was really worth it (and I was sceptical going in). It's really changed the way I think about myself and my relationships to women (and, boy, am I having some head-smacking moments now that I think back on how I used to approach these things...). My only regret is that I didn't do this years ago, but better late than never. I will keep you all updated on my progress. I am confidant now. I feel like I have the tools I need, thanks this - I've just got to learn to apply them. Practice, practice, practice.
Everyone else: sign up for the bootcamp. You will be glad you did.
Last edited by Vartan; 10-14-2007 at 10:57 AM.
It was great working with you bro. Keep approaching. Friday night was a shark tank. If you can game there you can game anywhere
That shit was D-Day, you guys walked off the beach with a knife in your teeth and looked up to 500 howitzers...
Seriously though, great to hear you're integrating stuff and actually practicing.
And remember if you could game that first night, you'll never have a problem again...
A review of the New York-Bootcamp that might be a little different
This review is on the TMM-Boot camp in New York from September 27th-29th. Though it is a while back, I think it might be useful to some of you. After all, that is the reason why I wrote it.
Thoughts for the decision-process to take the Boot camp:
This review on the Boot camp in New York is probably a little different then the most reviews you will read here. Because I took the Boot camp even though I was not a Newbie nor did not have any game with women. I had game before.
I was a decent natural. Nothing they gonna make movies off, but I had game and improved it, when I joined the community about 1 ½ years ago. And I pulled my share of women home. So why in the world would I take a Boot camp? you might ask.
Well, these were my thoughts: I had game, but like most naturals, that read some books and a lot of stuff on the forums, I could not control it. When I was on, I was really on. The night could not be long enough for all the closes I could do on these nights. But only 1 week later, things would be completely off and I would not be able to seduce a 75-year old, blind lady in a walker. Sounds familiar to some of you?
I felt like Luke Skywalker. I could feel that I had this power, but I could not control it and use it consistently right. When I joined the community I improved my game a lot. But then I hit a point, where my improvements started to stop. And I realized: There is only so much you can learn from a pick up-Book. (Plus: A lot of the stuff that’s posted on the Forums is only half-true. So you adapt it with these errors, use it in the field but pf curse it does not work right.
So I figured: Hell, if I do PU, I will do it right. I will take the Boot camp (I will talk about the decision about the money at the end). My thoughts before were: Well, I know a lot of theory, so the seminar-part will probably only be a clarification a bunch of things, but I will be able to talk to the instructors about my sticking-points at the workshops at night. Their answers might help me improve my game a bit. Man, was I wrong.
Here is what really happened: The instructors not only were able to answer all my sticking points. But more important: At the Boot camp they really retooled my game and with this remodelling send it to another level.
The best analogy I can come up with is the development of Tony Romo, the Dallas Cowboys QB. If you know football, you know that Romo has turned from 2nd string clipboard-holder into a Top-10 QB within a season and went to the Pro Bowl last year. But it was not always like that for him. He signed with the Cowboys as an undrafted Free Agent and earned his roster-spots through his play.
Even though, he passed for school- and conference-records in college. The point I am getting at: That guy obviously had talent and could play when he came out of college. But what you might not know: His college-skills were not good enough to get him to the next level. Only after the Cowboy-coaching staff overhauled his whole throwing motion did his game start to take off (Source: Sporting News, Pro Football 2007, p.166).
That is exactly what Sinn, Future, Braddock and the other instructors did to me at the Boot camp. Just like the coaches did with Romo, these instructors overhauled the game I already had and send it to that next level that I needed to get really good in the future.
Let’s start of with some critique. The planning of the Boot camp was not very good for a company as professional as TMM. They announced the location pretty late. By that time it was hard to get special deals for hotels and flights. They also changed the starting time not once but twice. That does not make much of a difference for people that are from NYC or have only couple of hours of travelling. But like some other students, I got in from out of town, so the time changes screwed up my planning. That can be done better. That critique should be allowed.
On to the seminar: Right of the bat I realized, why my assumptions of the Boot camp were totally wrong. In Boot camp they teach you an incredible amount of information. Even for me, who knows a lot of theory, I basically did not stop taking notes for 3 straight days. In these days you will learn so much information – it exceeded my wildest expectations.
Most of all, it were the little details Future and Sinn talked about, that were missing in my game that really impressed me. The small things that you will not read in the books, but that make all the difference for success or failure in a set. And these information are extremely helpful, if you already have game and are only missing a few pieces.
As I said the lead-instructors were Future and Sinn. A killer-combination of knowledge. They were the main reason why I took the Boot camp in New York. I wanted to see and meet these guys in person, since I heard so much about them (and I read Sinn’s blog every Friday to fire me up for the party-weekend.)
Future is an amazing teacher. He teaches with a passion you rarely see. The result: The information in the seminar stick with you. Sinn doesn’t fuck around in the Boot camp. I am not gonna lie and I think he has no problem with it: He will get on your ass in class and practice-sessions. Hell, he absolutely creamed me in front of the other students, when I had to perform an opinion-opener horribly. I have never used an Opinion-Opener in my life (I usually use situational- or direct openers) and was therefore super incongruent – and he grilled me for it.
But guess what: The things he ripped on me for (for example: too much movement) - I still remember them and have implemented them in my game. He is like that though Marine-instructor. He will be rough with you and he will come down on you pretty hard, when you don’t do things right, but he gets you ready for battle.
And to me, that is the only thing I care about. So that was fine with me. (Plus: I have to say, he will also be the first to point out the positive things you did in a set as well and compliment you on it. So to me that is a fair treatment.)
What really impressed me with Sinn was a situation that most students there probably did not even noticed. One student asked him something about a technique from a different PU-school. And Sinn went into a rambling speech about PU-theories. I mean this guy knew everything. That was the point when I realized: Sinn knows the game inside-out.
The second situation, which made me realized that I made the right decision to take the TMM-Boot camp, was a conversation with Future. I told him that I never use opinion-openers and felt weird using them. He looked at me and said: “I don’t care what you use, as long as you can open sets on a consistently. I only care about results.”
That really stuck with me. It showed me: They care more about your game and your success with girls then about one specific method. They do not stick to one method dogmatically, which has turned me off on some other PU-schools (where it is basically wasted money, if your personality does not fit their specific pick up-methods).
I am not gonna go into the details what they teach at Boot camp. But I can say this: What makes the Boot camp really special is not just the information you get there. If you put in some work you can get a lot of it somewhere on the internet. What puts the Boot camp above any other form of information-gathering (reading a book or forum-articles) is the additional live explanations the instructors give you for the routines, BL etc.
That was the biggest eye-opener to me. You can read a routine in a book. But it is a whole different league if you have 2 instructors in front of you that explain the routine for you. And then they also explain to you what they have experienced in the field using this routine and how to reacted to the responses of the women. Plus: You can ask them specific questions for your game right there in person. That is what I mean when I say “you can only get so much out of a book”.
We went out Friday and Saturday to a bar in New York (I keep the name to myself). The first night I got there about 5 minutes late. So I walk in around 10:35 pm and there were not a lot of people there at that early point in the night. The bar and some tables were taken and that was it.
But as I walk in, I already see Future in a four-set at the bar. About 2 barstools down is Sinn gaming a blond that was a 9 in my book. Certainly the hottest girl at the place at that time (some hotties came in later, but the blond was still in the Top-3 of the entire night). I walk over to our group and Braddock grabs me and another student and starts explaining what Future and Sinn are doing in their sets while we watch it.
Now I do not know if this is the way the demos are taught in other Boot camps. But it sure as hell should be the case. Because Braddock’s comments were flat out eye-opening. It puts the observation of an instructor-demo into a different light. It is like those 80s-movies, you watched with a 3D-glases. If you have an instructor by your side, who tells you exactly what to look for and how and why the other instructor in the set is doing something at that specific moment, you get so much more understanding of the whole dynamics.
Braddock was excellent pointing out BL and kino-behavior. I have to say I was blown away by Sinn’s game. This blond chick was super-hot and she was hanging on to him like a groupie on Justin Timberlake. He kiss-closed her after gaming her for about 20 minutes (which means it was not even 11 at night). After I have seen both in action, I will say: Sinn and Future are truly incredible in the game.
The place got packed quickly around 11:30 pm and so we students went to work. I have to admit, I just could not get myself to open with opinion-openers. It is just not me. But the great thing was: The instructors did not care. They were just interested in making me better, so they gave me other openers right in the bar. My first set was a 3-set and it hooked great. I used several things I learned in class and was amazed by the results.
I number-closed a Latina from the group before they left to go home. Just to complete the story: I went on a date with her 2 days later and laid her. So I guess I am living proof that students even get laid right at Boot camp. I know one other guy got at least a BJ out of a girl he gamed during the night out.
Back to the workshop. I was almost speechless, how dead-on the instructors were with their critique of my game after my sets. I mean, they only watched me for a couple of minutes, but both Sinn and Future came up on different occasions and nailed my mistakes on the head. If you already have some game, those comments just help you make big leaps.
That is probably the best part of Boot camp. Demos are actually overrated, unless you get a guy like Braddock explaining live why the instructor is doing something in his demo-set. This is my ninjas-secrect piece of advice to you if you take a Boot camp: If you like demos, then grab an instructor and have him explain what is going on in the set. You get 10 times more out of it.
Much more helpful for a guy, who already has some game, are the comments on your game right after your sets, though. This is were they really retool your game. I loved that you could go up to the instructors anytime and ask them for an opener or about some sticking point for a very specific situation. Because some situations just come up in the field that you do not even think about asking in class.
And the instructors will help you or come up with an opener on the spot. I asked Future about an Opener of a seated set on a couch. He looks at the situation, thinks for about 10 seconds and goes: “Go in and say this.” And it was not an opinion-opener, since he knew I did not like them. It was an opener that suited my style perfectly. So I opened the set and it hooked right away.
After the workshop ended, the instructors get everybody outside and give you feedback (good and bad) on their game. What I liked: They will tell you exactly what your sticking-points are, so you know what to work on. I have taken the sticking-points Sinn told me to heart and implied them last weekend. It has already improved my game.
Overall the Workshop is great. But it is basically like this: The more you put in, the more you get out. I loved to talk to the instructors and have them give me advice. For example: I talked to Braddock quite a bit about some of my weaknesses and my game-style and he taught me a new opener right at the bar that I really liked. By the way: I read somewhere in the forum that someone took a 1:1 with Braddock and really liked it. I can back that opinion. He is really a great instructor for in-fields.
All the instructors have such a great real life-approach. They will not talk about theory for hours in the field. Instead they will tell you what to say and how to use your BL properly, what not to do or what to pay attention for. That is really what improved my game so much.
I do not need a 3-hour discussion, if the “Indirect Opener” is better then the “Direct Opener”. I care about real-life advice that applies in real club-situations. These guys came up and said: “This and that was good in your last set, but you did not do that. And that is why you lost the set.” Boom. You get it and things start clicking. Because it is connected to a real set you just did, and not to some dry theory written on paper. That is when the pieces come together.
Lets talk about the cost of the Boot camp real quick. I live in Germany and I know in the German Pick Up-Community this is the deciding factor, why people do not to take Boot camps or seminars. I am pretty sure it is also a big reason for a lot of you guys in the States. And rightfully so. 3.000 US$ is a lot of money. A lot. And I think even the guys from Mystery Method will agree.
Here is how I looked at it when I decided to sign up for the Boot camp and also Sinn’s “Same Night Lays”-seminar: I only have this one life. So I don´t have time to waste saying “Oh, I will do it in six month from now.” Fuck six month from now. I live today. I want my best game now. I only have this one life and I do not have six month to waste to run around with a game, that is good but not nearly as good as it can be.
It really just comes down to a simple question: Do you want to live life to the fullest now? My answer has always been: Yes. That is why I signed up for this Boot camp and did not wait.
So what about the money? It is a fucking lot of money. But here is how I looked at it, when I put my plastic down to pay for it: If there was a course out there that I could take for 3.000 US$ that would teach me a proven method to make me loose weight in 3 days, would I pay that money for it? Hell yes. I can loose 20 pounds. And I am pretty sure every overweight person would do the same.
If there was a class out there, that I could take for 3.000 US$ that had a proven method to get me into sensational physical shape with killer-muscles and ripped abs (sorry, inside joke from the Boot camp. I had to put that in there) in 3 days? I am pretty sure, we would all take it. Why would you and I pay without hesitation: Because we all know that is money well spend. In 3 days you make major improvements on your body - that is a stellar deal, because you save so much time of your life as you get the results right there.
But when it comes to the game and picking up women, which are far more important for our lives then a perfect body, the 3.000 US$ suddenly becomes an obstacle. It does not make sense to me. People are willing to spend 1.000 US$ on a bigger TV or 5.000 US$ on a nicer car, but the will not invest the money into the most important thing in their lives: Themselves.
Is it a lot of money? Fuck yes. But it is worth every penny, because if you really get the teaching and follow through with what you learned, it will make your dating- und sex-life dramatically better - very soon. And if you have some game, it will push you even further – and that is something that I am willing to spend my money on right now..
Yes, I have to work more now to make up for the hole in my pocket. Yes, I have to miss out on some nice tech-gadgets that I wanted to buy. But you know what: I can earn money in the future. No problem. But my game is already improved and better then it ever was today. Not in six month but now I can go to a club and pick up a 21 year old and after 30 minutes she tells me, that she wants a threesome with me and her girlfriend. That happened to me two weeks ago on Friday at a club in Germany. Keep your fingers crossed I can pull that one off. (I should be fair enough to admit, that I used some of Sinn’s new techniques, that I learned at the “Same Night Lay”-seminar.)
The point for my decision was: I only have this one life and I will do everything in my power to make it great today. Not in 1 year. Or in 2 years. TODAY.
Was the Boot camp worth the money? Every fucking cent. It exceeded my expectations. And I honestly mean that. If I had to do it again with what I know now what Sinn, Future, Braddock and Co. will do to my and your game, I would sign up in a second.
I think the Boot camp is a giant step for guys who already have game and are only missing the final pieces to get complete the puzzle. I know there are a lot of guys out there that think: “Oh, I already have game. I will just read some books and fix my mistakes. Why should I take a Boot camp that introduces me to basic stuff I already read about.” That is what I thought and I was so wrong.
They teach you so much more information. Plus: It is totally different to read about something and you think you know how it should be done right and getting it explained properly by true PUAs. Because if you already have game, you tend to overlook small errors in your game, since you have been doing it for so long.
But those small errors often make the difference between taking the girl home and going to Taco Bell alone at 2 am. At Boot camp, the instructors will correct these errors in the field and give you specific information for your game.
If you had game before, I can attest for Sinn, Future and Braddock, that they will find the errors, bring it all together. If you are serious about improving your game, the Boot camp will push you and your game to the next level. It did for me.
Best of luck to you. I will see you in the field.
SICK REVIEW MAN, THIS IS SO INSPIRATIONAL. I'm definitely going to take a BC with Sinn next year when I'm 21. Good luck on that threesome btw.
I spent alot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered.
Wow! This is one of the best reviews I've ever read. Very honest and extremely detailed. That was a fucking awesome weekend for me, so I can only imagine how mind blowing it was from a students perspective. Sinn and Future co hosting a bootcamp is pretty amazing to watch. I've attended quite a few bootcamps and never attended a bad one, but having two guys with their skill level in the same bootcamp was pretty cool to see first hand. You guys got a real treat.
Great review man
View Full Profile: Click Here Why are you not reading my Blog?????
Click Here: www.braddocksblog.com "I look like you want to look, I fuck like you want to fuck, I am smart, capable and most importantly: I am free in every way that you are not." - Tyler Durden
Tags for this Thread