Ever get called on using routines ?

Just wondering if any of you have been called on using routines . How did you recover?

Have any of you stopped using routines completely and just use a natural approach?

The traditional way to respond to being called out on using routines is to say something like "Yeah, my friend just showed me this book and I told him he was full of shit, but I had to try them out just to prove it to him".

The "natural" way of dealing with this response is to just brush it off and pretend like she never said that, and steer the conversation down the path towards where you want it to go.

For most people, canned material is a tool to help them develop themselves until they can "see the matrix". After you've been using routines for a while, you begin to gain an intuition for the different things that you should say at different points in the conversation and start ad-libbing it. Congratulations, you're now a natural.

Don't use stupid routines you saw on a TV show. We stripped anything like that out of the Routines Manual and replacing with instructors' personal routines.

Originally Posted by Savoy

Don't use stupid routines you saw on a TV show. We stripped anything like that out of the Routines Manual and replacing with instructors' personal routines.

This.

And if you get a routine make sure the principle is the same, just make it relevant to you. I see routines as examples, It's then your job to change them.

I'm going to try to answer your question first, but there are some attendant issues I want to address afterward.

As Love Systems 's fearless leader pointed out above, the routines you are most likely to get called out for are the ones you've seen on the TV show or in Neil's book.

Even so, the longer you stay in a set the less likely it will be that a girl has heard a routine.

There's a really good reason for this, and it's the same reason EVERYONE doesn't use Love Systems . See, when most guys learn about the seduction community, whatever the source, their initial reaction will usually be fortified by their egos.
They don't need it.
It's weird.
It doesn't work.
Their friends will think they're rude.
They're too shy.
Maybe it would work for other guys but not for them.

If they don't dismiss Style's antics as the machinations of a clever writer or write off Erik because he looks like the world's oldest dungeon master, they will usually run out to their local water hole and try out a piece of material because it seems so interesting. Bonus points if they've had a few rounds first. Chicks love it when guys are sloppy drunk and spouting lines from VH1.*

Maybe a guy uses the "Jealous Girlfriend" opener from the book.

Maybe he asks some girl if her nails are real.

These initial forays into the material don't result in hot ropes of jism flying onto the face of some winsome avatar of Aphrodite-- our hero used them as lone elements of a weak overall seduction -- so this lonesome man discards the community and its teachings as bupkis and returns to his previous task of fortifying his forearms to streaming HD images of Tori Black et alii, all in preparation to get walked on by the girl of no one's dreams.

Life continues. The world continues to spin.

The farther up the Emotional Progression Model you get, though, the rarer recognition objections will be because most guys never get to those parts of the model, or if they do they're so socially clueless that the incident dissolves in the girls' minds. As such, since most guys suck at building attraction, overusing qualification materials is almost impossible. The list keeps going:
Strawberry fields?
The Question Game?
The Cube?
White Room?
Fuggedaboutit.

Moreover, it doesn't matter how much exposure any one piece of material gets since confidence, attitude, non-reactivity, and good body language never stop being attractive. If you get called out, just act like it was all part of your master plan and stack forward. If you get blown out it's not because of the material but because you had a negative reaction to rejection. In this hypothetical instance, sure, it was the material and her recognition of it that got you blown out (not saying it happened; cf. my use of the word "hypothetical"). Five minutes later in the interaction, though, you would have been blown out by other, more insidious and corrosive aspects of your shitty frame. You would have been blown out by your balking and stalling and feeling like you got "found out," as if hitting on a girl with her décolletage receiving 45% more oxygen than the rest of her body is somehow weird.

Recently I walked across a club to start a conversation with a beautiful girl, and her friend applauded my (amazing**) opener and told me it was time to neg her. I laughed and said, "Oh, wow, is that what I'm supposed to do? I didn't realize we were playing According to Hoyle Love Systems (formerly the Mystery Method ) rules here! Are you saying the doggy dinner bowl eyes she's giving me don't count as IOIs?"

The friend started laughing.

"Seriously," I said. "You have no idea the dragon you just unleashed on yourselves. DO tell me of your expertise on my field."

"What?" the friend said.

"I used to work with the guy in the funny hat. I work for the Bentley of dating instruction companies." I then turned to my target and said, "Shit's about to get real interesting here, so you probably should listen up. Keep in mind I'm still hitting on you."

Before I go on, I want to say I'm using THIS story because I got the girl. My boy eventually winged the obstacle, and I isolated the target who later said the real shift was one of my uber-qualification questions. She later described her mental process at that questions as follows:

1.) Who does this guy think he is asking me that?
2.) What IS the answer to that question?
3.) Am I going to tell him even if I find out?
4.) Do I care what this guy thinks?
5.) Oh my God, I DO care what he thinks!

Side track. I just get pissy when people talk about this one time they delivered a routine like a bad mofo and that interaction didn't actually result in sex.***

Where was I?
Right.

There are dogmatists (aka beginners) here poo-pooing my reactivity or my acceptance of the PUA-hitting-on-us frame. Guilty. The moral of the story is when the girl STRONGLY implied that I was using PUA tactics I acted like the thread was part of my master plan all along. This is the frame for every objection, by the way, whether the girl observes PUA tactics, questions your fashion choice, or suggests you're gay. Everything you say is right, and everything is going according to plan.

I'm going to go a little bit farther down your argument than you maybe had in mind now. You're probably not asking your question in a moment of whimsy but because you are concerned about the repercussions of using routines at all. Do they work? Will they work? If you use them does it mean you're not a "natural" or that you're not "alpha"?

First, I'd be remiss if I talked about this without directing you to Mr. M's terrific article on the subject.

Adding to what Jim said there, routines are great tools. Actually, they're less like tools than nails, bolts, screws, and mortar. They are not the wood and the struts or even the paint or the roof. They are always there, always at the back of your mind. A lot of times routines for me are cues that I'm moving to another part of the Triad Model or Emotional Progression Model . Note that when I say that it's barely a cognitive process so much as a signpost along the way, like street signs posted on the way from your work to your home. You don't need them, but they're still there and still guiding the way.

In addition to the excellent routines in our Routines Manuals , you should always be on the look out for stories. I pilfer shamelessly. I try to keep it under wraps when I am teaching and my students only learn stuff penned by LS guys, but in my personal life I am not above using ANY routine from ANYwhere as long as I personally find it amusing (you DID click the link and read Mr. M 's article above, right). This and I probably use at most five or six routines in any given seduction . Remember, they are the bolts and the nails and screws, not the girders, the support columns, and the roof. Once you understand the attraction switches, you should become a story hunter. Whatever it us do it for the story as well as the experience. Be opinionated, i.e. relentlessly yourself, and use points of dispute as on-the-fly opinion openers.

I know all this is way beyond the nature of your question, but I felt it was germane. Hope it helps.

I'm off to change some lives in Las Vegas.

Peace.

*-- This is sarcasm. Except in my case, since my blacked out autopilot game is a billion breeds of ballistic.
**-- Holy crap, I'm awesome.
***-- Princess, since I know there's a good chance you're reading this, I hope you're happy I finally mentioned you online.