Arguing for dummies

[Lucifer214]

There is a fundamental difference between the way men and women argue. Most guys utterly fail to realize that women, by and large, don't argue to win or prove their point. They argue for one reason and one reason only: to express their feelings. Once you understand and accept this, arguments with your girl will stop being such a big deal, because you'll realize that you don't have to prove to her that you're right, you just have to empathize.

Now, for the exceptionally clueless, let me define that for you. Empathy is understanding someone's situation. It is not sympathy, which is feeling sorry for someone, it is simply putting yourself in their shoes so that you understand how they feel and why they may have behaved or reacted a certain way. This is an essential part of being human, although some people (namely sociopaths) seem to lack it. If you lack it, fake it.

Let me bottom line this for you: it doesn't matter who is right. Let me say that again: It doesn't matter who is right. What matters is that she expressed her feelings to you, and instead of empathizing, you tried to explain your position. She doesn't give a shit about your position, or who is right, or any of that logical shit. Men argue to win, women argue to express themselves. Figure out what she's really saying to you and empathize, and the argument will be over. That's all she wants. Let me give you an example.

Let's say you have a flat tire, and you walk into a room with 20 guys in it, and say out loud: "I just had a flat tire..." and what will happen? You'll get 20 guys all telling you how to fix it. "Do you have a jack?", "Do you have a spare?", "Make sure you loosen the lugs before you jack it up...", "Put your hazard lights on before you jack the car up..." and so on. Men think logically and try to find solutions to problems, it's part of our design.

Now walk into a room with 20 women and say the same thing. What do you think will happen? You'll get 20 women empathizing with you. "OMG, that's terrible!", "You poor thing, that must've been really traumatic for you!", "Are you allright?" and so on. You won't get a single solution to your problem, but everyone in the room will be sympathetic to your plight and try to be supportive about it.

This is the fundamental difference in the way men and women operate socially. If you keep these things in mind, and follow a few simple rules, arguments will no longer be a problem, because they will be almost non-existant, and when they do occur, they will be brief.

And listen, it is possible to apologize for making her feel one way when you meant something else, without giving up your frame. You can apologize for a misunderstanding without being beta. Repeat after me: "I'm sorry if I made you feel that way, it wasn't my intention..." This one statement can save you days of bitch-attitude and nagging.

When you find yourself in an argument with her, stop yourself and don't argue back. Listen to what she's saying and figure out what she's looking for. If she's trying to control you or force you to beta yourself, just refuse to argue. Be unaffected. The best response is "I'm not going to argue with you about this...", and mean it. Don't let her get under your skin, be better than that. But if she's actually trying to tell you something, like you made her feel lower value by something you did, it is ok to apologize for making her feel that way through misunderstanding without apologizing for whatever you actually intended to do.

The Rules Of Arguing With Women

Rule 1: Don't argue. Have a clear position on a disagreement and stick with it, but that doesn't mean hammer your point into the ground, it serves nothing. If you're right, you're right, if you're wrong, you're wrong, either way it's irrelevant. That's not why she's arguing with you in the first place. State your position and let it go.

Rule 2: Be willing to hear her out. If she has a valid concern, address it. Realize that women argue for different reasons than men, and that she may be trying to tell you something but she can't approach it directly, so she's doing it indirectly. Listen to what she's saying, and try to understand where she's coming from. If she has a valid point, concede it and move on.

Rule 3: Don't tolerate nagging and bullshit. That is not arguing, it's nagging, and it's not ok. Seperate that shit from a valid disagreement that needs to be discussed. If she's just trying to be a bitch or she's trying to punish you for something, just get the fuck out of there and let her vent on someone else.

Rule 4: Apologize if you are wrong. And that doesn't just mean your main point, it means if you crossed a line during the argument (the "c-word" is never ok, it's losing your temper, which means she wins), if you made her feel like shit during or before the argument without justification, etc. If you were wrong in any way, it is ok to apologize for that without conceding to the main point of the argument.

Rule 5: Never break the rules you know women have to follow. Don't expose the fact that she's arguing about one thing because she's pissed about something else, it will only piss her off more. Never expose the fact that she's on the rag and emotional and arguing about nothing, it will only make it worse. Never expose the fact that she's attacking you out of her own insecurity, it will only make it worse. Understand it, address her real concern, and let the argument go. It shows social intelligence, it makes for great make-up sex, and it keeps you from engaging in long, drawn-out arguments that can break up otherwise good relationships unnecessarily.

The bottom line in all of this is to simply not argue. It serves no purpose. If she's arguing for a reason, address the real reason and the argument goes away. Engaging in an argument that isn't really about what you are arguing about, and especially trying to win such an argument, is an exercise in futility. Don't waste your time, there is no way to win.

Now, I know these things aren't easy, but they are simple. It takes self control, but if you keep control of your temper and use your brain, you'll never "lose" an argument with a woman again.

lucifer

BTW: Yes this is field tested. I was married for 13 years.

[Charlybrown]

How about a sixth rule: Quit the argument before You loose Your temper. As soon as You notice that You'll start offending, shouting, threatening, just say something like: "I end the discussion now because we're getting irrational", leave the room, close the door behing You - slowly and quietly - and do something else, like, check Your emails. Remember: before You crack up.

It's basically the same as: Be willing to walk away, don't be clingy, always be the first one to hang up. She will then realize that she has overdone and that You remained in control, she'll come after You and apologize. Offer her now Your empathy (again), then explain Your points (again) - always seek first to understand, then to be understood. You'll immediately get the discussion down to a more factual, rational level. Worked wonders with me.

Greetings.
CB

Edit: It's just like a freeze-out. A subtle, almost subconscious blackmail.

[sdnightfly]

If there's one thing I got out of the Mars and Venus book, it was this topic. Don't be her Mr. Fix-it, sit back, and listen, don't tune her out.

Rule 1: It depends. Some arguments are fun. Sometimes you might enjoy spinning her up but calming her down soon after. Something you have to gauge and know them better to do. Some girls are arguing just to get under your skin, nothing more. It's funny when you aren't affected by it, just like a little sister throwing a tantrum.

Rule 3: Depends on what she's nagging about. Most of it's more spoiled brat stuff. Put her in grownup timeout.

Rule 4: Some guys won't admit it when they're wrong. But you don't want to constantly be the one who's wrong either. She better own up to her mistakes too.

It's when you stop arguing that you have something to worry about.

[TheRogue]

Excellent post Lucifer, Best Of.

Rogue

[Colin]

I agree with this 100%.

Rule 3 is a doozy. I've dealt with some stubborn girls who weren't very forthcoming on what exactly was on their mind.

It's always better to take the high road. Great example of being the leader.

[Triggerhoppe]

This is a great thread. I wish I realized this stuff when I used to be in my LTR. It would have probably prevented a lot of aggravation and confusion.

[Lucifer214]

Thanks for the comments, I just want to add to these.

Originally Posted by sdnightfly

Rule 1: It depends. Some arguments are fun. Sometimes you might enjoy spinning her up but calming her down soon after. Something you have to gauge and know them better to do. Some girls are arguing just to get under your skin, nothing more. It's funny when you aren't affected by it, just like a little sister throwing a tantrum.

I tend to seperate "play" fighting from "real" fighting, and I think you're talking more about play fighting. Like when you know she gets aggrivated about a certain topic and you poke at her about it to rile her up. This isn't a real isue that needs to be addressed, it's really a complicated form of foreplay.

Rule 3: Depends on what she's nagging about. Most of it's more spoiled brat stuff. Put her in grownup timeout.

Yeah, good point. If she's nagging about something that you are actually doing that is pissing her off, you might consider looking at whatever it is and seeing if you need to change it. It's rare, but there are occasions when nagging is justified. But I'd say better than 90% of the time it's just brat-nagging.

Rule 4: Some guys won't admit it when they're wrong. But you don't want to constantly be the one who's wrong either. She better own up to her mistakes too.

Right, don't go too far and be apologizing for everything. But when you're wrong in some way, even when you're not wrong all the way, it's ok to apologize. If you crossed a line and said or did something you know you shouldn't have, apologize for it. Same goes for her. Expect her to apologize for it, and withold sex if she doesn't. Drives 'em crazy when you flip the script on them like that.

It's when you stop arguing that you have something to worry about.

I've heard it said that if you haven't had the tarp and shovel in your trunk and started planning where to bury the body, you've never been in love.

lucifer

[Flex88]

This is gold, great post.

[IceNow]

Yes, great post, but you have to be careful about the "saying sorry" situation.

From my point of view, one shouldnt say "im sorry" so often, I only say "im sorry" when I did something completely out of place, for the other things, I later recognize that I was wrong, but dont ask for forgiveness.

ICE

[Mastermind1]

Originally Posted by Lucifer214

Rule 5: Never break the rules you know women have to follow. Don't expose the fact that she's arguing about one thing because she's pissed about something else, it will only piss her off more. Never expose the fact that she's on the rag and emotional and arguing about nothing, it will only make it worse. Never expose the fact that she's attacking you out of her own insecurity, it will only make it worse. Understand it, address her real concern, and let the argument go. It shows social intelligence, it makes for great make-up sex, and it keeps you from engaging in long, drawn-out arguments that can break up otherwise good relationships unnecessarily.

You left out speaking softly. When she's got a tone or starting to raise her voice, speak much softer than I normally do, and drain all emotion from my voice. That's if I don't want her to later say that I yelled at her. This also works to make her lower her voice and tone. If that doesn't work I start walking away, clipping toenails, reading, etc.

I seriously disagree with #5. When my gal is arguing about A, but she's really upset about B & C, I let her know. It's important to let her get that A-shit off her chest, but if it's an artificial gripe, I'm not going to waste my time discussing it or listening to too much of it. I'll explore the how unfounded the phony gripe is. I make it so obvious that she has to admit it's bullshit. If it gets her more mad, I don't care. (Don't you think I'm mad that I have to hear bullshit? I don't give a damn if she gets mad.) It gets the real matter out in the open. I'm not here to play games with her. She's a grown-ass fucking woman. If she's upset about me ignoring her, she shouldn't talk about the shirt I'm wearing. I want her to know that if she has needs or concerns about something, we can address it together. If she wants to play games I'll take her ass to the fucking Super Bowl.

If she's stressed about something that's coming up, I might quell that concern, after she's done venting. I'm not going to take a tongue lashing because she doesn't have anything to wear to a wedding. No, I'm calling her ass out. There's nothing wrong with her knowing that I know what's up. Hell, that shows social intelligence and it shows her that I'm not about to sit here and listen to her talk about some bullshit that's not even the issue. Shortly there after she feels shitty, apologizes and buys me something.

What you said about listening is huge. Sometimes they have the stupidest "dilemmas", and the solution is obvious. Why talk about something that's obvious? All they wanted to do was talk about that silly shit.

Lucifer, your advice is solid. However, in my experience sometimes you have to rattle the cage.
YMMV, my approach is congruent with my "take no shit" personality.
-MM1