Pajama bottom IOI, hyper-qualification??

[valid_life]

Okay there’s this woman in the apartment I’ve livied in. We’ chatted briefly on and off in the elevator (defintley NOT pickup conversation) and I always see her doing her laundry late at night. Tonight I get back from an awards ceremony and after-party so I’m feeling all jazzed up and I decide to join her with laundry. I go up to the laundry with clothes and she lets me in (it was locked) and immediately when I enter she flips down her pajama bottom top revealing more of her hips (she’s wearing like slippers and some pajama top). Is that a HUGE IOI??

Is that "qualification"? This stuff happens to me A LOT. Like women suddenly do a manuveur to reveal more skin when I don't even think we're beyond A1. Some women do and say things like they've been dating me for a month and it kind of rattles my cage.. Are those "revealing skin things IOIs? And while were' on the subject, when a women pulls down her shirt (to straighten it out) but revealing "less skin", is that an IOD?

Okay back to laundry-babe.... I hadn’t even been trying to pick her up, so I was a bit shocked. Then we talked a bit and she created a timebridge for ME, saying we’d meet back there in 20 minutes. In the next twenty minutes I kind of went into a hyper mode to clean my apartment (in the case of needing a seduction location), drank some listerine, took off my tie and coat, and poured water on me (I was scorchign). Then I go back up there and she’s all finished with her load and she says “oh you scared me!” when I walked in (I jostled her). She’s about to leave so I do my canned material of a SEA semester program and she listen for the 10-minute routine. She asked about parents and other things (are those questions IOIs?) and I use this great bit of using their strengths and weaknesses and the necessity of physical intimacy, etc. Then we go down the elevator and I say I’m still trying to move into my place and asked “Would you like to see my place? I’ve been tyring to get someone’s advice on where to put stuff”. And she’s like no.

Did I blow this after she did the turn down pajama top? That turned me on SOOO much. I just wanted to grab her waste and cuddle…but of course I felt like I had to suppress that desire because of the whole “social etiquette thing”, but what’s with that? I think my biggest problem, actually is not attracting women (I’m like a savant-expert with Openings and basic attraction), but I think I lack SERIOUS skills in flirtingly showing that I like her too. I always go into “impress her mode” where it’s like I’m giving a performance and impressing and audience instead of “wooing”. Any tips on that one? The impressing-performance has it’s place in my profession, but I’m thinking I shouldn’t do that same thing for women. This is a very unique situation. If you do stand-up comedy, for example, and your profession is about winning an audience, making them laugh, engaging them, you’d think that would be great for picking up women, and it IS great for attraction, but when it comes around to “not being on stage” and showing intimacy, I’m clueless.

Another consideration possibilty: She just wanted to turn me on. Emotionally abuse me, make me feel like I’d get laid, see how far she could push me (hey look at her from her point of view, by flipping down her pajama top (1 sec). She got me to clean my apartment for 20 minutes, listerine, cool off, get more comfortable, and do this “presentation” for 10 minutes”!!!

Things that could obviously help my game:
Letting women do there IOIs and not treat them as like “you’re about to fuck”.
Try to work on wooing, negging, and flirting, instead of “presenting to women”. This is a BIG thing to break out of because I cannot (and will not) ever lose the presenting thing, but attracting a woman is SO different from creating comfort and IOIing. I basically an expert guru in Attraction but a blithering dolt in basic Comfort and giving IOIs. I write poetry and give poems but that’s so formal. I give flowers. All the very chivalric “courtship” IOIs.

However, the "huge presentation" effect is just my style. It's "unconventional" but it WORKS for me. I like doing that and I'll stick with it. I just feel like my MAIN area of work (I'm fully convinced of this) lies in accurately reading women, and most importantly, trusting what I intuitively understand. I sometimes feel like she needs to say "I like you. We should try to move into Comfort phase" You know, ridiculously linear, right! My strength is DOING the good stuff and talking in the phases, my weakness (that I'm working on) is trusting and reading women (IOIs, IODs, etc.) with greater accuracy. Yes, I've read the huge bullet point list in TMM giving examples of IOIs (returns calls, laughing but disagreeing, nicknames, repeatedly touches you, etc.) and I plan to become more familiar with that.

A part of me feels like:

1. the girl just wanted to tool me, turn me on and create sex drive abandon me
   or
2. She actually DID like me and I didn't know how to respond to her accelerated IOI
   
   What do you do in those situations? Where a girl shows like tremendous IOI (like an IOI from someone whom you've been dating) and you just want to jump straight into S2 (based on the level of that IOI), but you know you should do "solid game'. I've had a number of "fool's mates". See the Crazy Luck. No LMR." post. I'm doing something right, but not following through with somethign else.
   
   I just can't help feeling like the laundry room scene was an opportunity and want to know suggestions to seize it in the future.
   
   And the night before I was talking with this other woman (over the phone) all about domination-submission fantasies and it's wierd she says her fantasy is "for the man to just walk in the door, throw her on the bed, and tell her what to do" (A submission fantasy), and a friend of her said it sounded like "rape" and she was like yeah, it's close to a rape fantasy. I told her I have a domination fantasy (great, to complement her fantasy), but this was all "talk". I've perused some of the "sex" category but haven't found much detail on actually doing the fantasies.

It's just the WORST feeling to look back on a scene (like laundry room) and feel like she wanted you, but you didn't do something right. Kind of like a fantasy swells up right behind you, but you were checking your board or something so you feel like you would have caught the wave (experienced some fantasy or connected with a HB) if you would have done something differently. God, I hate that feeling, but, I don't live with regret, so I guess time to move on, but for future, I want to make sure I have more savviness iwth IOIs and especially these bizarre "accelerated IOIs".

Another wierd thing. A lot of women I interact with end up treating me like they're a shrink of some sorts, asking about my profession, family, etc. So for awhile I actually tried treating women LIKE a shrink talking about all psychological uncertainties....yeah, that brought some SERIOUSLY interesting results.

[valid_life]

Okay, obviously, for qualification issues. This article by Sinn is brilliant and (standard). It is dense as hell, but I understand the guys style of writing so it comes across as very clear.

Somewhat non-sequitor (admins cut me some slack): I'm so used to posting a problem and then finding the answer to it and posting that answer on LINUX Boards, (lots) and now it's on WOMEN boards. Women, OS connection, installation, and troubleshooting!? If you're a computer nerd, you'll know what I'm talking about!

[valid_life]

No response, and I've been needing an answer fast....so after reviewing standard lbro,
I realized this:

1. She's either giving passive, somewhat subtle, or just plain fake IOIs
2. I'm an "IOI determiner" moron. (I need a woman to be blunt and direct like whoo---silly giggling, something out of the ordinary you know to make me feel confident that I like her.
3. Given 1 and 2, I can't help but feel total confusion, so it seems like the best solution is to not try. If I go over than and she tools me (I just found out she's my neighbor), then I'd have an "emotional headache" for awhile. But on the other hand, I'd feel much better knowing a clearer picture (if she liked me or not, ambiguity can be fun but kind of bewilders me).

That said, she's an awesome woman. She likes the same music I do ( I can hear it through the bloody walls!) She's international (I LOVe international women) and gorgeous and seems liek she has a VERY organized, cool personality. I've dated messy chicks and I can't stand women who are hyper-messy. Frankly, I have NO idea why I'm getting so pent up over this. I can only think of three things for the cause of that:

1. She's tooling and confusing and manipulating me.
2. I actually REALLY like her for some reason and increases nervousness, which increases DHD, and I think I actually really CARE about her and don't know how to show that.
3. I'm wierded out that we live next to each other, but "love thy neighbor" right? I'm just so used to meeting women randomly in bars. Meeting someone so close to home, literally, is a jolt.

Most other guys would look at this and say You're lucky as heck to actually be next door neighibors to a gorgeous woman, but if I can't know I can fuck her or can't fuck her, it will be hell. It will be normal if I know I can't (same old, same old), but it obviously will be heaven if we can really sexually have fun with each other. I'm black-and-white, any grey area in between that will probably make me go nuts, but on the other hand, maybe this is good, in some warped way, I'm becoming more familiar with seduction. I also care about what she says. Like I really think about it, or, more likely, she really effectively touches a nerve. Interesting stuff.

She's totally hot, but bloody hell. Good questiosn to ask:
What languages do you speak? How Fluently? What's your favorite one.

How can I turn this into a neg (actually this is BHRR)
So what's your favorite type of techno music?
Response.
Hey I love techno music, too! I used to bike to it all the time. But I can't believe you like that stuff, you're such a nerd. It's the same stuff over and over again!

Where do you like to go in the city for food?
What are your dreams?
What do you like most about working at the peninsula.

Actually, she realy doesn't return my dialogue. I'm pretty certain she has little itnerest in me.

One thing that kills me. that LURES me in, is I seriously get SO caught up on the fantasy of "instant sex" and feel like Ill get that if I talk to her "just one more time" of course one more time evolves into the next 50 times, all mostly associating with my confidence smashed. or something.

Wow she did like SO beauitiful. What archetype would she need? I don't think the rake, I think something gentle maybe. Of course being gentle gets REALLY boring after awhile.

Maybe,actually, the only relationship for me that will last is one where there is confusion. I'd kind of "go through the other relationships and then be done with it".

I just wish I knew exactly what women's level of interest was at any diven time. She coudl be telling me she wants to fuck me right now, but if she uses blunt IOIs I may not even pick up that she likes me! Or worse, the reverse, we're like in S2/3 and she shows not obvious IODs, but isn't really into it.


She's VERY neat. How do you connect with a neat person. If I'm neat, I don't need structure, I need substance. So I convey I have substance that she needs. How do I do that? I

[valid_life]

What the hell is with this with wierdly (sexy) IOIs (possibly?). I was just in the mini gym working out with the lights off (the way I like it) and this hot chick (I thought she was HB7, others might say 5-7) comes in and starts doing eliptical and then she just gyrating her ass in my face. After I work out, I get hard really quickly, so I'm stretching right behind her, have a boner, and then she like puts her left hand on her hip and like "massages it" there for a sec. What the hell? Again, I just totally wanted to go out and start massaging her ass, she got me REAlLY turned on, but did she WANT me to do that? There's one thing if a HB10 walks by and everyone gets stiffies and there's one if 2 people alone in a mini gym are working out and the chick like slides her hand on hip. I'm thinking IOI or just me overly-fantaszing, but if it IS IOI, what does she want? Does she want to make "first contact". This is my reoccurring drive but it SCARES THE CRAP out of me because I'm sor turned on by not knowing someone and first contact, but simultaneously FEAR violating her, having her scream rape because I touched her ass, and flip. Have I been too socially conditioned/ can massive parts of sarge be bpyassed given right timing, people, connection ,serendipity, synergy -- good stuff)??

[Trask]

lol your over thinking if you ask me.

When you invited her to your appartment she just had a case of LMR, should have said something like it wasn't a big deal and start over next time.

[Frenchement]

Neg her. In my (admittedly fairly limited) experience of MM this is the key. Honestly, about 4 or 5 different examples in the past week confirm this to me. I can be chatting away quite happily, I throw in a neg and immediately the shock/grin/slap on the arm combo comes out and you can literally SEE the attraction rising. Also you sound as though you DHV like a bit of a wiener (no offence). It's not a comedy act, it's a plausible story with value thrown in. Neg neg neg, time constraints when you see her and some better DHVing and you'll probably be good to go. To be honest that time you'd just got back from an award show (DHV) she was in doing laundry in her slippers (DLV). If you'd made that obvious to her, she'd've been less inclined to fuck you about.

[valid_life]

Originally Posted by Trask

lol your over thinking if you ask me.

When you invited her to your appartment she just had a case of LMR, should have said something like it wasn't a big deal and start over next time.

lol. Good analysis. I think that's a bit of what it was. That sounds right, like the "invite LMR". Far out. that's encouraging, too, mate. Thanks.

Either she's VERY much like me, and robert greene writes, NEVER seduce your own seductive type. Or a part of me constantly is aroused by her or intelectually enjoys engaging her.

I thought of some great lines. If I play music too loud and she has to tell me to turn it down say:
Alright I'll keep it at a good level, but it's not like....we....live.....together. (we live together) like slow-command hypnosis, just for shits and giggles (we have a common wal).

I was also thinking of inviting her to a party, that, just...um....happened to be where she's the only one that showed up. I knocked on her door after I had an injury and she said "You caught me at a bad time....my boyfriend is coming soon". I'm likely reading too much into this, but she could have said a lot of things other than "You caught me" (that's promisingly suggestive). She could have just said, "I'm not available, or tersely I can't help you". Man, I want to throw some parties!!


Yeah, I do have a tendency to kind of "self-troubleshoot" when something really gets to me. I self-generate feedback, haha!

[valid_life]

Originally Posted by Frenchement

Neg her. In my (admittedly fairly limited) experience of MM this is the key. Honestly, about 4 or 5 different examples in the past week confirm this to me. I can be chatting away quite happily, I throw in a neg and immediately the shock/grin/slap on the arm combo comes out and you can literally SEE the attraction rising. Also you sound as though you DHV like a bit of a wiener (no offence). It's not a comedy act, it's a plausible story with value thrown in. Neg neg neg, time constraints when you see her and some better DHVing and you'll probably be good to go. To be honest that time you'd just got back from an award show (DHV) she was in doing laundry in her slippers (DLV). If you'd made that obvious to her, she'd've been less inclined to fuck you about.

haha. Good point. My recent experience (awards show) intrinsically had DHV. I was in a suit (DHV) and she, like you said, was in slippers and pajamas, DLV. She has a sophisticated day job, but, lol, it did look blatantly like two opposite Social Value people talking at that moment. haha.

Also you sound as though you DHV like a bit of a wiener (no offence).

Mind elaborating there, mate? Last time I checked "DHVing like bit of wiener" wasn't part of standard game jargon! If I read your insinuation correctly, I think I'm already aware of and have addressed in the previous messages (which I'm grateful that you blokes skimmed, btw, for advice) my tendency to "perform" and get stuck in Attraction mode and treat the girl like an audience, instead of a rapport-comfort-neg-building target.

LOL. That's a great observation with the post-awards-ceremony-and-suit and the slippers-laundry-and-pajamas temporal social value comparison! haha.

[valid_life]

This is technically a separate topic about my general-game strat, but the two response (other than my own) I got were extremely helpful, so here goes...
I have a tendency to deliberately NOT try to look cool around some women. Example: I very infrequently smoke but I can do that,, but I ask a woman if she can "spare a square" a then act like I've never smoked before fumbling with lighting etc. and they eventually laugh at me and say something like "you really haven't smoke before" have you. Why do I do this? I think it has the same effect of "if I was gay, you'd be me time" and it removes defense, unless it completely backfires and they just think I have DLV, but if they judge my social value on something as petty as that, they're a moron anyway. A good person would think that was "cute".

Also, last saturday I just finished about 5 hours of high-fiving kids, signing 100+ autographs, at a birthday-party-like setting as a superhero and I value that experience WAY more than a HB10 f-close anyday, and no, not in the michael-jackson fucked up way. It's just a lot more fun to get youth inspired and charged about a super-hero than banging some HB10 that doesn't really give a shit about her dreams or me. That said, I went to a bar later that night and all these women kept inquiring about what was in my bag so I just went total exposure and pulled out my costume, my dance belt, all my books, my calculus notes, everything. Bloody insanely honest, and then, ironcially, one of the women started calling me a liar about stuff (i was talking iwth different accents, but I told them it was just for fun). But no one ever just reveals all the contents of their bag! The point is that honesty in a world (and especially a deceptive setting like a bar) is such mind-blowing jolt that people rarely believe it!!! Conclusively, I'm done with bar scenes, unless already with a friend. Women and people are socialy trained to encourage only fallacious relationships from bars. Music interactions (dance floor) are great, but bars are just emotional sewers.

[valid_life]

Okay, in another somewhat related topic, what do I do when I, after hundreds of humiliating (which I refuse to do anymore) hours of sarging, when I finally get a date with a woman that acts REALLY interested an open to me, like she's all "we can do whatever" and I'm so used to having to take abominable rejections and screening just to open. It's like you fight for a loaf of bread for years and then someone hands you a platter of lobster and you're afraid you'll "mess it up" because of all the atrotious shit you had to go through previously. That said, I think i'll just look at all dates just as friends and abandon all game theory from now on. I'm reverting back (which is really moving forward) to Natrualism.