How do I learn Seduction?

[Cedar]

Rule #1. Digesting seduction material HURTS your game while it internalizes.
Rule #2. Seduction material is NOT a substitute for field experience.
Rule #3. Have fun and happy hunting.
1. Buy the Magic Bullets ebook.
I've purchased and read over two dozen seduction ebooks. The Magic Bullets ebook is the MOST comprehensive manual available. It covers everything you need to GET STARTED. No book can prepare you for everything.
Q: Do you profit from sales of the ebook?
A: Not directly. I benefit from the increased popularity of Love Systems, but not fiscally.
Q: I'm having trouble with X, is there another product I can buy to resolve it?
A: Yes, but you're not ready for more material. Not even material on opening. See the newbie mission below.
2. Begin the newbie mission. Weeks Five through Ten.
Your goal during the newbie mission is to open three sets an hour, four hours a night, four nights a week for six weeks. You will do this using 3-4 stock routines, a couple of stock negs and a stock qualifier. The primary goal is to open 200-300 sets during this time. Eject at the twenty minute mark to ensure you don't stick with one set for the entire evening.
Q: Where can I find stock material for the newbie mission?
A: The Attract section of the forum and Bristol Lair.
Q: These routines don't feel like they're me. Are there any others?
A: Of course they're not you. These were written and field tested by guys who are GETTIN LAID. Are you getting laid to your contentment? No? Then stop being you and pretend to be someone who's reached your goals.
Q: Can't I build DHV stories like they talk about in the MM ebook?
A: Not during the newbie mission. The words you speak are minor in comparison to the inner game you portray via your nonverbals. Continue to use the stock material until you are CONSISTENTLY moving into C1 on your sets. That's the point at which your nonverbals are aligned with a successful PUA. Now you can build and field test personal DHV stories.
Q: I have this great opener, will it work?
A: If you ask this, I can only assume you haven't completed the newbie mission. Put your work of creativity down and complete the n00b using STOCK material. You're not successful with women to your satisfaction. You isn't getting laid. Stop being you. We're going to change you into someone who's getting laid by pretending to be someone else for awhile. Put your ego aside, suck it up and take it like a man.
Q: I went out last night and couldn't open a single set. Is this approach anxiety?
A: It's a combination of things we toss under the Approach Anxiety umbrella. Your body is protecting you from abnormal behaviour. Back in our tribal days, talking to strangers could get you killed. Which is a bad thing. Read this article if you'd like to understand what Approach Anxiety is and learn ways to diminish it. The short answer is suck it up, take it like a man and open sets. Noone can force you to do this but you.
Q: All the girls in the club were with guys. Where are all of the single girls?
A: First, most of those guys are not fucking those girls. Second, her boyfriend is HER concern, not YOURS. Love System teaches method that can be indirect. You're not hitting on the girls, you're being social. Walk up to mixed sets and start having a conversation by using stock routines.
Your goal during the newbie mission isn't to get laid or even to make progress with ANY ONE girl. Your goal is to improve YOUR SKILL.
Q: The club I went to last night was very loud. How do I talk over the music?
A: If at all possible, focus on bars during the newbie mission. Clubs have a very regular crowd and require you to be MUCH higher energy than a bar. Clubs also require a LOT more Kino than bars.
Q: I'm in school or the military. Can I run the newbie mission on campus or base?
A: Hell no. Do NOT run the newbie mission in a closed environment where you will be seeing the same people over and over. You're going to fuck up during this mission. A LOT. Doing this at work, school, base, etc could get you fired or suspended. It could also build a reputation. Find someplace else to practice.
After the newbie mission, feel free to game wherever. Just use common sense.
3. Monthly audio subscription. Weeks Eleven through Sixteen.
You've completed the newbie mission. You're consistently opening sets and consistently reaching social hook on most sets. Time to sprinkle in some seduction material.
Q: What seduction material do you recommend after the newbie mission?
A: Only spend ONE hour with seduction material for every FOUR in field. No exceptions. You should consider two pieces of material at this point in your development as a PUA.
Disclaimer. I am not fiscally affiliated with any of the companies I list below and do not receive any direct personal benefit from my recommendations.
First is a monthly audio subscription. Love Systems, David DeAngelo and Carlos Xuma are all good. David D interview a new seduction guru each month. Carlos Xuma focuses on inner game and personal coaching. The point of a monthly subscription is to continutally expose yourself to new concepts and trains of thought.
Second is the Cliffs List 2005 DVD set. This is a collection of ten seduction masters from the 2005 Cliffs List expo. This introduces you to new concepts and schools of thought within the seduction community same as a monthly audio subscription. Only with visual feedback. Of note are a slew of great speakers.
Following the ONE hour with material for every FOUR in field, these two purchases will be your ONLY seduction material for the next six weeks.
Q: I'm having trouble with X, should I buy Y seduction material?
A: No. You'll purchase sticking point specific seduction material later. For now, focus on learning from successful PUAs and building DHV stories (see below).
Q: I can't afford the Cliffs List DVDs. Is there something else I can buy?
A: Go to the Fast Seduction Archives and download material from some of the big names like Savoy, Style, and Tyler Durden. Read what you can.
4. Personal DHV stories. Weeks Eleven through Sixteen.
You'll begin building DHV stories based on your personal life experiences as explained in the Magic Bullets ebook. This includes openers, A2 stories, grounding routines and vulnerability stories. You will INTENSIVELY field test these over the next six weeks. This is the same six weeks in which you are digesting the Cliffs List DVDs, btw.
Q: How do I field test these stories?
A: One at a time, replace a canned routine with a DHV story. Go out that week and run the story on twenty sets MININUM. You'll work out the kinks and determine if its a suitable story for future sets. Do this for each story until your satisfied with the quality.
5. Sticking Points. Weeks Seventeen ongoing.
It's been Sixteen weeks since you first purchased the MM ebook. That's Four months. Congratulations. You should be seeing some success and begin feeling more adept with women. But you have your sticking points.
Q: Which product should I buy for X problem?
A: Go back to the cliffs list DVDs and your monthly audio subscription. Did any of these authors have a style that jives with your natural state? Go research wether or not they have a seduction poroduct and purchase it.
Second, consider phone consulting from a seduction company like Love Systems. The cost is very affordable. This is the BEST POSSIBLE purchase baded on my own experience.
Q: What's your opinion of X product?
A: I get two or three of these e-mails a week. Aside from this post, I am no longer recomending product to budding PUAs. Most of the people who e-mail me need more field time. Not more product.
-- Cedar (Edited)

This is the definitive work on pickup and dating theory, written by an acknowledged master of the game - a guy who’s TRAINED many of the new “gurus” on the scene!

[Cedar]

Thought I might share my opinion on some of my earlier work.

Originally Posted by Cedar

Rule #1. Digesting seduction material HURTS your game while it internalizes.
Rule #2. Seduction material is NOT a substitute for field experience.
Rule #3. Have fun and happy hunting.

The human mind is not designed by nature to think ahead. It continues routine day to day activities until something breaks down. Troubleshooting begins until a solution is found. And a new routine is developed and followed until something else breaks.
Frustration and Failure bread learning.
Read that again. You learn more by failing and THEN digesting material. Cavemen didn't have ebooks and DVDs. And they still got laid. Go out, make mistakes and THEN listen to the experts.
Personal Example. Work relocated me downtown a month ago. Since then I've hit a coffee shop every morning with the intent to run game. I waited a couple of weeks before picking a single shop and running game on people in line and behind the counter.
It's been good practice. And I'm taking it slow. I finished a DVD from pickup101 earlier this evening. And EVERYTHING came together. It covered opening in coffee shops and explains things I added to my bar game to make that environment work.
It also explained why a couple of things I tried felt wrong. If I'd watched it first, I would NOT have achieved the same level of understanding and skill.
As an unfinished thought, I'm wondering if MM should have students try exercises during the bootcamp unprepared and then explain why certain students did better or worse than others.

Originally Posted by Cedar

2. Begin the newbie mission. Weeks Five through Ten.
Your goal during the newbie mission is to open three sets an hour, four hours a night, four nights a week for six weeks. You will do this using 3-4 stock routines, a couple of stock negs and a stock qualifier. The primary goal is to open 200-300 sets during this time. Eject at the twenty minute mark to ensure you don't stick with one set for the entire evening.

The newbie mission accomplishes three things.
1. Familiarity with bars.
2. Accustoms you to failure. Which is a catalyst for learning.
3. Develops your delivery including body language and tonality.
Using stock material [which everyone resists, you loosers] accomplishes only one thing.
1. Developing your social intelligence.
You could develop delivery with personally designed openers. And run the newbie mission just fine. ASSUMING you're a socially intelligent individual. I don't care what you think of yourself, but MOST GUYS on this website have POOR social intelligence. No hatin'. Just experience working with guys in field.
Near as I can tell, running the newbie with stock material until they get results is the best way to develop social intelligence. I'd love to see research or experience pointing to a better way.
On a personal note, I use stock material because it amuses me. My openers are environment-specific and generally one line long. Then I stack into jealous gf, david bowie, tattoo, etc.

Originally Posted by Cedar

Q: I have this great opener, will it work?

Comments about some of the openers I've seen posted on the forum.
1. Follow the structure. Most openers utilize illusionary input (intermittent hook questions) and the 90/10 rule (where you plow after she provides input.)
2. Stick to girl relevant topics. Relationships (jealous gf), the unknown (spells) and celebritieis (david bowie). Avoid death, rape, violence, bodily fluids, etc.
3. Avoid demonstrations of lower value.
4. Don't add DHV spikes. This one's debatable, but adding DHV spikes on the open feels try hard to me. Your mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by Cedar

Q: All the girls in the club were with guys. Where are all of the single girls?

Personal note. I open guy sets to warm up when I'm out solo. Less anxiety.

Originally Posted by Cedar

Q: The club I went to last night was very loud. How do I talk over the music?

Personal note. Nightclubs continue to elude me. Peacocking helps. So does getting to know regulars in the VIP.

Originally Posted by Cedar

First is a monthly audio subscription.

I've had the pleasure to listen to the first Mystery Method audio subscription and I thought it was excellent. I no longer subscribe to David D. The quality was too inconsistent. Carlos Xuma was not focusing heavily on technique when I subscribed, it's my only critique. His mindset material is fantastic. Pickup101 is a personal favorite.
I don't want everyone to rush out and buy or not buy product based on my opinion though. I sent an audio CD of Lance to a buddy of mine in Spain. His response, OMG, it's like listening to you. My personality and outlook on dating is EXTREMELY similiar to Lance. As a result, I am a complete whore when it comes to Pickup101 product.
Your mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by Cedar

Second is the Cliffs List 2005 DVD set.

The purpose of this recomendation was to introduce other seduction gurus available to you as a student. A lot of these guys have archives on the fastseduction.com website. I recomend JLAIX for purely entertainment purposes, btw. I have never laughed so damn hard.

Originally Posted by Cedar

4. Personal DHV stories. Weeks Eleven through Sixteen.

My first bootcamp was in September of 2005. Personal DHV stories were discussed but not written. By February of 2006, creating personal DHV stories became an exercise within the bootcamp.
Arguably, you could begin using these early on. I'd rather you have success with stock material before switching to anything personal. By this time you'll have already started sharing personal stories in set. Now's the time to combine your field experience with your theoretical knowledge to create some stories and field test them.
Personal note. I'd love to hear feedback from individuals that disagree with this approach moreso than anyone who thinks it looks good on paper or has had success with it. I think this community could devout a lot of effort into a more effective learning process. Contrary opinions can only aid in that quest.
-- Cedar

Who wants to change their abilities with women and dating FOREVER?

[Elwing]

I would like to suggest an addition to Cedar's (superb) program.
If your approach anxiety is severe, you could try a pre-newbie mission (first posted by Enigmaz) of just saying "Hello" and ejecting to 50 sets.
The thinking is that if merely approaching other human beings makes you anxious, empathetic people (read: women) will pick up on that anxiety and become anxious themselves. Moreover, anxiety inevitably gives off a DLV stench.
So unless you're largely purged of basic social anxiety, I couldn't recommend running any material whatever, not even an opener.

[Ram]

really great posts Cedar, I can only argue on one thing, most of the stack material have been field tested in the US or Canada and in my opinion they have to be adapted to cultural needs to different counties. Also as mystery and style among others noted, european males display alot more alfa male characteristics than american males and this makes european girls more used to this stuff and they actually react in a different way. I think that you have to use more personal DHVs and openers if you're not from the states.. also translations do not work very well..
Ram

[Cedar]

Originally Posted by Ram

...european girls more used to this stuff and they actually react in a different way...

This is a social intelligence issue. Running stock material in adverse environments like europe will breed more failure than in the states. That will only propel greater learning. Forcing you to get better faster.
ie, using stock material in your scenario is a DAMN GOOD THING.
I'm not saying the natural game method or personal story telling methods won't work. I'm saying the stock material route DOES work. And it works well. People resist it out of congruency issues. And if you're not getting the results you want, stop being you for awhile.

[Cedar]

More thoughts on my original work.

Originally Posted by Cedar

Rule #1. Digesting seduction material HURTS your game while it internalizes.
Rule #2. Seduction material is NOT a substitute for field experience.
Rule #3. Have fun and happy hunting.

The seduction community was formed when a few individuals realized patterns in their interactions and success. They headed blindly down the path of the womanizer and backwards engineered it once they reached a platform of independent success. They packaged their work and began selling it to people like you & me. We either did not know this lifestyle was available, or had failed our few attempts to enter it.

The lifestyle of the PUA has been around since the beginning of modern civilization. Entering the lifestyle require perserverence. It requires an internal mindset that welcomes failure for the learning experience it is. Those individuals who succeed in life do not ask questions before they fail.

They walk into a bar with stock material and open a dozen sets. Whether those sets open or result in getting you expelled from the bar is irrelevant. You are not attached to the outcome. You are attached to the process.

I've had the honor of attending a few boot camps over the past year and a half. I've kept in touch with students from each and every camp. The ones who succeed are the ones unafraid to make an ass out of themselves. The excusers' are the ones who gave up.

What makes you an excuser? I taught my son how to ride a bike last weekend. We started on a patch of grass behind my apartment. The ground is uneven. We moved to the pavement. I need a hill. We move to a paved hill at a nearby park. Too much hill. Excuses. Always some reason why you can't fail. Always some attempt by your brain to prevent you from doing something you're not used to. Something new. I told him he's protecting himself from something new. I told him the worst thing that's happened to me in 20+ years of biking. He got on the bike and rode for two miles, crashing 3-4 times every block of the way.

The next day, in 20 degree weather, he insisted on biking. We went five miles. No falls. No crashes.

Seduction is no different than riding a bike. The terrain, the bike, what you ate... none of this matters. It's whether you're willing to fall a hundred times before you get it.

Originally Posted by Cedar

1. Buy the MM ebook. Weeks One through Four.
I've purchased and read over two dozen seduction ebooks. The MM ebook is the MOST comprehensive manual available. It covers everything you need to GET STARTED. No book can prepare you for everything.

I think the Venutian Arts Handbook is overwritten. It suggests that Mystery's success is based on over analyzing the situation. Which he doesn't do in field. He does it during his post evening debrief. My preference is the Attributes by The One. It focuses on displays of confidence including dress, posture, kino, etc. It's not perfect, just a better tool for teaching the basics.

Originally Posted by Cedar

2. Begin the newbie mission. Weeks Five through Ten.
Your goal during the newbie mission is to open three sets an hour, four hours a night, four nights a week for six weeks. You will do this using 3-4 stock routines, a couple of stock negs and a stock qualifier. The primary goal is to open 200-300 sets during this time. Eject at the twenty minute mark to ensure you don't stick with one set for the entire evening.

I wouldn't prescribe this exact mission today. Commit yourself to 12 opening conversations a night for a few weeks. Don't let the convo go too long. You're building confidence in your ability to open a conversation and not get asked to leave. Once you've built that foundation, begin extending your interactions.

Originally Posted by Cedar

3. Monthly audio subscription. Weeks Eleven through Sixteen.
You've completed the newbie mission. You're consistently opening sets and consistently reaching social hook on most sets. Time to sprinkle in some seduction material.

I'm no longer sure this is a good thing. It encourages over analysis. I'd rather you meet with an approach coach over the phone every week to go over sticking points. Posting your LRs online for analysis isn't a bad idea either.

Originally Posted by Cedar

4. Personal DHV stories. Weeks Eleven through Sixteen.
You'll begin building DHV stories based on your personal life experiences as explained in the MM ebook. This includes openers, A2 stories, grounding routines and vulnerability stories.

My favorite excuse from fellow seduction community members is the use of stock material and routines. Either its a newbie telling me how the routines just aren't him or the self proclaimed veteran who's beyond routines and doesn't use that stuff. Both people crack me up. If you're new to the community, use the stock material. If you're a veteran...keep using it. I use stock material a lot. So does my buddy B. He's been in this community since before Project Hollywood shut down. And gets laid like a rock star.

Originally Posted by Cedar

5. Sticking Points. Weeks Seventeen ongoing.
It's been Sixteen weeks since you first purchased the MM ebook. That's Four months. Congratulations. You should be seeing some success and begin feeling more adept with women. But you have your sticking points.

This comes back to the main point of learning seduction. Acceptance of Failure. If you're willing to fail, you're willing to learn. Write down your sticking points. Now go to the bar for a few weeks and focus on it. Push every interaction to failure and learn where the boundaries lie.

Who wants to change their abilities with women and dating FOREVER?