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View Full Version : A Touching Date with No Touching



Takashi Miike
11-08-2011, 06:18 AM
Perhaps this is yet another quirk in Japanese behavior. Perhaps I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill. I do not claim to be a dating a Japanese girl guru. I have literally no idea what I'm doing. I'm just taking a nosedive off a cliff every time and hoping there's no shallow rocks to crack my head open on. All I know about women I learned from David D. Angelou, Neil Strauss, Mystery, et al. Here goes.

I met Yurie at a party through my English conversation school job. She was working there at the front desk at the time. She was working during the party, making sure everyone had drinks, and cleaning up their beer and stuff. That was a while ago. I had just burned through the "Double Your Dating" basics and was still on my training wheels with my new and ultra-sexy persona---or so it seemed to me at the time.

I actually had a lot of fun with her at the party. And, of course, she was gorgeous. The most memorable moment of the night was when she broke a glass and was reallllly paranoid for some reason about our boss finding out (it's a low-budget kind of biz, so a broken glass would equal a whole 100 yen short in profits. Big money, I assume). So I helped her throw everything away and bury deep into the garbage bag. Such a gentleman I am. How retarded now that I think back on it. Next time why not smash a window and set the toilet on fire, I say.

But I digress.

Last night was the first night I had met up with her in nearly a year. I had somehow stalked her well enough through mutual friends on facebook. We became friends, I made fun of some of her pictures and status updates, and, voila, here I was on a date with her in Yokohama.

Mystery teaches this too, but I read in a Japanese dating book that it's best to take a girl on 3 mini-dates instead of just one. It said pick 3 locations and keep moving her around to different places throughout the night. This creates somewhat of a time warp. It's supposed to give the illusion that you've already been on 3 dates with her, deepening her comfort level with you that much more, even though it's technically still just one date.

First location: Book store.

Well, I take that back, kind of. We met at the Doutor coffee shop right outside the JR ticket gates, I got a coffee, she didn't, and I said, "Let's go to the bookstore. I want to see if the new Haruki Murakami book is in."

Originally I planned to buy it, just to legitimize the bookstore detour, but when we got there it was in a giant hardcover edition, and it was 3,000 yen! Screw that. Anyway, I used this as an opportunity to find out what books she read and what she liked in that department of life. Nothing, turns out. She doesn't read. She picked up a job-search book, and that was about it. But, me being the incredibly entertaining and awesome guy that I am (wink, wink), I took it upon myself to do the same thing that I do with everyone here in Japan: Try to make them more interesting than they actually are.

We went buy the magazine section and flipped through those. I tried finding a book I saw once about Japanese etiquette. I even picked up a tea ceremony book I stumbled across.

"Do you like tea ceremony?"

"No."

"Do you like tea?"

"No."

"That's right. You work at Starbucks. You like coffee."

"Yeah."

"I like tea better."

"Yeah, me too."

Whaaaaat? Anyway, out of the bookstore and into location #2 of date #1 (1 of a series of multiple and successful dates, I hope. Nod, nod).

Second loacation: Italian restaurant.

God, do I hate dinner dates. The only reason I do them is because I heard that if you don't then it's seen as a completely and utterly condemnable act of non-Cassanova behavior. So I did it. The dinner date. At an ITALIAN restaurant. Even though they all taste the same here and differ in chairs, tables and degree of lighting ONLY.

"Goodness they seat you far apart in this place," I thought from practically 5 feet away across the table from her. "How the hell are we supposed to break the touch barrier ("kino escalate", as Mystery would say) so I don't end up with another extremely hot "friend only"?

That never happened. But I was not vexed. There would be plenty of time for that later at location #3 (which I will keep a Mystery for now). We did have amazing conversation though. Grand and lovely CONVERSATION. That thing all women love, friends and lovers alike. But how to have the right kind of conversation that turns you from stalker-on-facebook-that-I-met-once-at-a-party-that-asked-me-out-to-eat-with-him to goodness-I-wonder-what-he's-packing-down-there? That will forever be my mystery, and quest. Because I am a really good conversationalist. I am! I even ran "The Cube" on her for pete's sake (re: The Game, et al.). That's got to at least get me a 10 on her hotornot.com! She was laughing and opening up to me. I looked around at the other clientele (they call them that at Italian restaurants, you know), and they all must have thought she was so into me. They all must have. We were the candle of the damn room.

I picked up the check when she went to the bathroom. Usually they offer to pitch in, but I didn't get even a peep out of her. Eh, whatever, it was only like 4,000 yen including drinks (alcohol, mind you. For once it was the girl's idea to start drinking).

I led her to that restaurant, that area of town for the sole purpose of the heft of karaoke places. I wanted to make it look spontaneous. I knew that the touters would be jumping down our throats.

One of the guys practically spear-headed us. "Karaoke wa dou desu ka?" ("You wanna bang your date in one of our tiny rooms under the guise of singing stupid songs to a television set?")

"Yes!!!!" I said. Wow, what a coincidence. We were JUST talking about music and singing and stuff, and what shear coincidence. Let's take advantage of this coincidence. What a spontaneous night we're having with all of these random adventures.

Third location: Karaoke box

After fighting over prices and where to go, as is the usual procedure before you do anything on a budget here, we got up to our room. She did not impress me with that first song, but nonetheless, we were alone. Away from prying eyes. We also had a couple drinks in us with more to come. Only one problem, though.

Why isn't she anywhere near me? Why hasn't she tried to break the touch barrier.

I followed the advice of the Japanese dating book that I read, thought I would kick it up a notch, and sung the Backstreet Boys song "I Want It That Way." The book says to sit her down and sing it lovingly into her eyes, and then go in for the kiss. I'm gonna be the first to negate this suave bit of advice: Do NOT sing the Backstreet Boys song "I Want It That Way" lovingly into her eyes. It sounded cheesy when I first read it, it felt cheesy, but the Japanese tend to like cheesy, but, no, trust me on this one. Only if you're like the first foreigner she's ever seen, let alone talked to and gone out to dinner with, will this ever remotely score you any points. Forget about it. Anyway, I sat her down in what I called "The Backstreet Boys Seat", thus breaking the touch barrier.

After that, I even did the, "Oooo, help me look for a song" while turning my back to her so that she'd lean over my shoulder and break the touch barrier and get some kino escalation going even further. She merely reached over with the pointer thing as far as she could and just tapped the buttons without coming into contact with me at all.

Now it would be one thing if she didn't seem interested in me at all throughout the night. But she was having fun. She was loving this, to the best of my knowledge. I wasn't like all of the other guys. I didn't talk about dating or that I liked her at all. It was a very comfortable date. No expectations. No putting myself in her lap for her to push right back off. I teased her, messed with her, got her to open up to me. I ran "The Cube" on her, remember?

After our hour was up, it was time to go home.

"Ewww! There's a creepy guy over there talking to girls," she said, referring to a middle-aged man trying to pick up passers-by.

"Don't worry, she's mine," I said and playfully took hold of her as if trying to protect her. She immediately broke free of me as if I were the guy back there that was, "Ewww, creepy guy." It's as if me holding her were the same as if he had tried to hold her.

I e-mailed her later telling her to e-mail me when she got home safely---a default e-mail I use here post-date. She e-mailed me back saying she was safe and that she had fun.

Oh! And as we were parting at the ticket gate she said we should do karaoke again sometime.

Whaaaaa? Is she into me or not? Was she just shy?

Yet another chapter in my chronicle of dating wtfs.

savhost
11-09-2011, 07:21 AM
you are analyzing too much. You cant be smooth by analyzing too much. Just do kino at some point, if you are rejected give iod, then dhv, get first ioi, second ioi, then do another kino.

When I go dinner dates, I dont sit accross, I pull the chair next to her,. Do that dont go to some uberluxury, try hard, 60s era business man type place, seems like you went such one. Go to one which has better tasting food and more friendly atmosphere..

DrDrew
11-09-2011, 11:04 PM
It's hard with Asian women. I'm in the same boat. Alcohol will solve your problems. It would be good to get one of the veterans opinions on typical Asian women's response to kino. I'm almost 100% sure that they don't reciprocate. But other that that, I don't know.

driedfruit
11-10-2011, 12:06 AM
Look at the Japanese culture. It's a paradox. On the outside it seems so conservative, modest, and humble, but upon peering deeper into it you'll find the outings of a sexually repressed culture. The tentacle hentai, bondage porn, game shows, etc. For such a prude culture they sure have some very explicitly sexual things.

Anyway, go out again. Try some subtle kino, like touching by accident but not moving. Escalate from there.

Takashi Miike
11-10-2011, 03:50 AM
What would be an example of "IOD" after she rejects kino? I mean other than, "Hey, you just rejected my kino. I am now no longer romantically interested in you because you rejected my kino." Or IS that the IOD?

What kind of restaurants are you talking about? Izakayas? The thing is, I used to take girls to the Ramen Museum---when I could get them there, anyway---but when I would tell my Japanese girl friends about that they would all say, "What??? That's not romantic. Why would you take them there? That's not attractive. That would make the girl feel disappointed and only think of you as a friend." So what kinds of places do you mean by better food and friendlier atmosphere?

Takashi Miike
11-10-2011, 04:04 AM
I know what you mean, DrDrew! I usually try to set the groundwork for kino the first time I meet them, otherwise it seems to me that you immediately get put in the "foreigner who e-mails me all the time for some reason" zone. But then again, with my ex-girlfriend, I didn't kino her at all the first time we met OR the first date, and the first date involved sharing an internet cafe! That said, I did end up sleeping with her on the first date. When I asked her what she felt when I didn't try any kino or anything like that in the internet cafe, she said, "Ohhh, I thought this guy is such a gentleman!" Maybe it depends on the person?

I also ended up picking up a girl one time at a party that another guy was with the entire night. She said she hated it when he touched her all the time. I didn't touch her at all until we went to a club on the first date and made out on the dance floor. I was able to get her back to my place and into my pajamas, but she wouldn't have sex. She never contacted me again. The morning after nothing happened, she was distant and said, "Everyone's the same, I guess."

What do you guys think? No touching at all at first to build trust?

Takashi Miike
11-10-2011, 04:08 AM
Well, driedfruit, if I could GET her to go out with me again, that is... I told her I was going hiking in two weeks, and let's go! Hmmm...where's that reply?...

I'm wondering if this whole process leading up to sex just takes longer here in Japan than it does in the west. Like if one night stands (with hot girls, that is) just doesn't happen here, and first dates, forget about it.

MegP
11-10-2011, 04:57 AM
Asian women are conservative compared to Western women. Touching on a first date is definitely a no-no. There are exceptions of course. I think she really did have fun with you and maybe after a few more dates, touching will no longer be an issue. Aside from studying dating books, maybe you could also read up a bit on Japanese culture just to find the right balance.

DrDrew
11-10-2011, 02:18 PM
You will know an IOD after she rejects kino. The mood, atmosphere, her tone, everything will change. I agree with Meg and driedfruit, learning Asian culture is going to be the key here. Please keep us up to date on your progress.

savhost
11-13-2011, 08:39 AM
takashi, did you read any other book than the game? or did you even read the game? you dont know an IOD?

Now you are not believing me and you are believing some japanese girls. Then go and do that way. Why did you even come to this forum, if you were gonna ask the girls? These girl friends of yours, How many chicks did they pick up? How many threesomes, how many same night lays they had with other girls?
Did your girlfriends of yours picked up one of the gay guys from a gay guy couple and caused them to fight between them ( are they equivalent to a guy who can pick up one of the lesbians from a couple)? What do they know about what they want, about pick up a girl? have they met a guy with just a little bit game ever? I am not talking even about a pua, just a guy with a little bit of game.

And they say going to tasty but not luxuroius restaurant is not attractive? ok just go to an attractive restaurant, buy some gifts, try to buy a sports car as well too, try to impress girls. if a girl was with me so that she can go attractive restaurant, I would just get rid of her.

I will not give any more advice where it is not appreciated and receives suspicion.

Takashi Miike
11-13-2011, 09:29 PM
Savhost, I was not disrespecting you or rejecting your advice. I was merely asking for examples. Let me reword my last post to you:

Give an IOD after she rejects kino? What is an example of an IOD after she rejects kino?

What are some examples of restaurants you've taken Japanese girls to that are not luxurious yet tasty?

Sorry for the confusion ;)

DrDrew
11-15-2011, 09:17 AM
When I go dinner dates, I dont sit accross, I pull the chair next to her.

I did this recently...worked like a charm. Thanks Savhost!

savhost
11-15-2011, 10:01 AM
Give an IOD after she rejects kino? What is an example of an IOD after she rejects kino?

body rocking, or reducing your intimacy, or subcommunicational IODs. It does not need to be verbal.

I am very new, dont know much about restaurants. If you have no idea just avoid luxury places and chain places. Make sure restaurant is laid back, with not much lightning.

Drdrew, your welcome.

ShinRaa
11-18-2011, 10:38 PM
I absolutely don't agree with the “no touch to build trust” approach, man. I used to have this kind of mindset and it is totally AFC.
And yeah, Asian Women (especially Japanese people) are definitely different in the way they approach kino, but turns out this is an essential part of the Game anywhere. I dated a woman in Tokyo once, and, as long as the vibe was going, I had the kino escalate properly. Ok, perhaps it is to some extent because I am a foreigner and Japanese women kino threshold is really different if you are one.

I think the problem was that you didn't escalate properly (which is the main problem with this) as you didn't touch all night, and did it all of a sudden (moreover, doing it inside a frame where touching was seen as a negative thing).
Kino should never turn out as creepy.

Don't be your average kuuki-yomenai man, read the vibe, do a lot of push-pool, act on IOIs, kino on disqualification… kino escalation means much more than: “touch her sexually at some point” — this is creepy. Focus more on the escalation part, and less on the kino part.

I hope this is helpful.

神羅

DrDrew
11-21-2011, 04:06 PM
Thanks for posting Shinraa. What do you think about the proper time that Asian women feel comfortable responding to kino with kino?

ShinRaa
11-25-2011, 08:02 AM
As long as you make it playful, they will answer to your kino.
The point is: don't make a big deal out of kino, and it won't be. The problem with Asian people (I'm really speaking about Japanese and — to some extent — Chinese people, as they're the only Asians woman I had any experience with) is that in their society kino is a big deal.
At least some kind of touching: you are probably aware with the fact that some japanese couples feel uncomfortable holding eachothers hands in the streets; I'm not even speaking about kissing in public!
On the other hand, playful kino is perfectly acceptable.

So, definitely, don't escalate kino this much in public.
The whole point is: get her accostumed and comfortable with you touching her, so you can properly escalate whenever you are in private and isolation.